Collars
********** 4/19/98 5:04 PM Begin logging Sub Pub - D/s.
*Night Spirit [HOST] | knit one, pearl two, knit one, pearl two, knit one
| pearl two
| hello tessa :)
tessa | hello.
*Night Spirit [HOST] | hiya effy and others nice seeing you here :)
effy | hiyas NS, Grpa
*Night Spirit [HOST] | hello love
tessa | it's rather quiet here this evening.
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | hello effy
*MoL & katie j | <peeking in>
!! Ms Behavin | evening Night Spirit
Lady Rapunzel | <-- wanders in quietly
rose | hi all
Leda | Good evening, all. <s>
*MoL & katie j | huggggggs, GrandPa
tessa | hi rose.
Lady Rapunzel | <smiles and waves hello to everyone>
rose | <s>
!! Ms Behavin | hello everyone
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Huggs right back MOL & Katie J
*MoL & katie j | hiya Ms. B
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Hello there LR
*Night Spirit [HOST] | OK first off we want a report MOL and katie
Leda | Hello GPDS. :-)
*MoL & katie j | shakes to you fro Mol Grandpa
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Hi Leda
*MoL & katie j | huggggggggs, NS
Lady Rapunzel | Hey Katie... you quit yet? <not lighting up, just
| in case>
*Lynn* | hello <s>
Leda | Yes--report report! <g>
Leda | Hello, NS. :-)
*Night Spirit [HOST] | huggers katie and MOL
*MoL & katie j | not yet, Lady R
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Aww, a hug won't kill you MOL
rose | katie you tryin to quit smokin???
*Night Spirit [HOST] | hiya Leda nice seeing you here :)
*MoL & katie j | <katie> MoL is delicious
rose | ten months tomorrow for me
Lady Rapunzel | <- offers Katie a cigarette, with a request of a
| smile at MoL...
Leda | <S>
*MoL & katie j | <snorts at Lady R from MoL
CL | evening everyone :-)
Lady Rapunzel | <laughs>
CL | argh..
Leda | Hey--that's great, rose. <S>
*MoL & katie j | good for you rose
Lady Rapunzel | Cute snort, MoL...
Daisy | Greetings all<S>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | <--knows a sexy guy who can make you quit darlin'
Leda | Going on 9 months for me <patting us both on the
| back> <g>
rose | thanks <feels great>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | hiya Daisy
Lady Rapunzel | <- sneaks one into Katie's pocket when MoL's not
| looking
elle | hello
wry§ilk | there we go...
*MoL & katie j | you wouodn't believe what he has that's cute <wink>
*Lynn* | hi elle
*MoL & katie j | <keyboard and fingernail handicapped tonight>
rose | Great Leda!!!!
Leda | {{{{{{{{{{{{silkie}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
Lady Rapunzel | <-- wouldn't wish to have that info, Katie! <laughs>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | katie what's he got?
elle | hy lynn.....
wry§ilk | huggggggs Leda :-)
*MoL & katie j | heheheheheeee
*MoL & katie j | hugggggggs, wry
Lady Rapunzel | <- hugs the lovely wry
Leda | <G> Do tell, katie
wry§ilk | huggggggs you two... :-)))
rose | hi wry! :)
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | I have great respect for anyone who quits on their
| own. Most have trouble doing
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | that.
wry§ilk | hi rose :-)
Trisha | quit 6 years ago.
elle | what are we talking about?
Lady Rapunzel | <- is smoking now, and *enjoying* it
effy | if you manage to quit, tell *me* how!
Trisha | woke up one morning and stopped.
elle | quitting <soeey>
*Lynn* | (-still smokes..<cringes>
Lady Rapunzel | <- is going to be in *big* trouble for saying that
| <sigh>
elle | sorry
rose | It wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be
Leda | Dunno that I quit "on my own," exactly, GPDS. <G>
| Mentor was pretty
Leda | instrumental in it.
*Night Spirit [HOST] | hiya elle in a few minutes we will be discussing
| this week's CO on collars
Trisha | you will know when the time is right for you
rose | just dont think about it anymore
rose | used to smoke a pack a day
effy | and the sidebar of quitting smoking <smiles at NS>
Leda | No--me either, rose! And I dreaded doing it for so
| long--thought I'd go nuts.
Leda | But once you're past a week, it gets a lot easier.
| <s>
Leda | <--was up to 2 a day--eeek.
rose | exactly!!
Lady Rapunzel | Leda, wanna come stay with me and help me quit?
| <laughs>
Lady Rapunzel | <- -smokes 2 packs a day
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Well, that's one place that a dom can be very good
| for your health then Leda
Trisha | think its once or twice a year I feel like I want
| one.
New York | Hi aLL
elle | you die later......if you stop....is that what you
| want? <s>
~~£âçÎè~~ | huggs all <S>
Leda | Yep, Grandpa. :-)
wry§ilk | quit for 4 years and then bout 2 years ago..
| stressed out and started again..
Trisha | funny..but you start to see what the triggers are
Trisha | that make you reach for one.
New York | hi
*Lynn* | huggs lacie
rose | used to think if I had a drink would need a cig,
| but it passed
~~£âçÎè~~ | heyyyyyy Lynn <S>
Lady Rapunzel | <- doesn't drink, so that's one problem solved
*Lynn* | <S> Lacie..
*MoL & katie j | we all die, smokers o rnot
*Lynn* | i like smoking..
rose | now, I can drink my face off with out a butt!!!
~~£âçÎè~~ | agrees with Katie
Lady Rapunzel | That's a *weak* one, Katie <laughs>
elle | eventually.....
elle | or earlier
rose | used to think when I have my morning coffee would
| need a butt
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | We all die, yes, but why make it sooner?
Lady Rapunzel | Driving without smoking is the worst for me
*Night Spirit [HOST] | ok say the last hellos and we shall begin
rose | but that passed too, and surprisingly fast too
~~£âçÎè~~ | I am on zyban
effy | if i don't smoke tho -- i wanna eat
Leda | Yep--that's still when I get pangs, Rap--when I'm
| driving. <s>
*Lynn* | i smoke and run 6 miles 4 days a week lol
~~£âçÎè~~ | that is supposed to help
rose | oooohhh yess Lady R driving!!!
Lady Rapunzel | <sighing> Leda... it's hell.
Trisha | whenever you are ready Night Spirt, Grandpa
elle | well used to smoke but now occaionally have cigars
| can never manage more than
elle | two inches <s>....it cured me
rose | OMG Lynn, really!!!
Lady Rapunzel | At the same time, Lynn?
Lady Rapunzel | <laughs>
effy | lol
Lady Rapunzel | Nice image
*Night Spirit [HOST] | Ladies and Gentlemen welcome to the Sub Pub weekly
| CO hosted by Miss KatieJ,
Leda | LOL Rap
*Night Spirit [HOST] | GrPa and myself--this weeks topic is---Collars and
| their meaning
Bruce | hi people
rose | could never run when I smoked
Lady Rapunzel | <paying attention>
*Lynn* | <listens..<s>
*MoL & katie j | <waving to the nice people here .. and the rest of
| you
*MoL & katie j | too>
Daisy | <
Lady Rapunzel | <applause for Katie J as she takes the stand>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | Some people have collars for training, some have
| special ones for play time,
*Night Spirit [HOST] | others have everyday ones
Daisy | oppppss<S>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | some feel collars is a commitment
~~£âçÎè~~ | <wondering which category I fall in!
*Night Spirit [HOST] | others feel it is a play thing like a flogger
*Night Spirit [HOST] | some think of it as a fashion statement
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Break the habbit by lighting w/other hand, smoking
| on other side of mouth, ets
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Then only have to worry about
ICEontap | sup all
*Night Spirit [HOST] | GrPa we are discussing collars now
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Mental addiction AND PHYSICAL ADDICTION
Lady Rapunzel | That told *him* <smiles>
rose | <g>
*MoL & katie j | <,watching NS rein in GrandPa>
Daisy | <S>
Leda | <stifles a laugh>
ICEontap | <------addicted to glue
effy | [whispering] dang
Lady Rapunzel | <-- doesn't bother to stiffle
Trisha | shhhhhh....lol
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Ok, sorry.
*Night Spirit [HOST] | Katie please I am in enough trouble
Lady Rapunzel | or even stifle
rose | okay, collars
*Night Spirit [HOST] | I wear an everday collar all the time with my 2 dog
| tags, and my Allyn's Toy tag
Lady Rapunzel | Yes, collars
Leda | <g>@rose
ICEontap | =)
*Night Spirit [HOST] | I also have some I wear for play which GrPa gave me
*MoL & katie j | how many here wear collars?
Leda | What does your everyday one look like, NS? <s>
Lady Rapunzel | <-- misses her collar very much
rose | not yet, pretty soon tho
Lady Rapunzel | <raising hand for Katie>
ICEontap | <-------dangling ©ªªªª©
*Lynn* | not me
*Night Spirit [HOST] | Leda it is a silver chain with a ring on it with 6
| tags on it
wry§ilk | you don't have it any longer, Lady R?
elle | what about telling someone who doesnt wear one why
| she should.....
Lady Rapunzel | Only my Lord can put it on or take it off, silk,
| and I don't see him every day.
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | She also has a fancy jewelry collar.
effy | i always thought of wearing a collar as a symbol of
effy | committment
wry§ilk | ahhhhh, I see.
Lady Rapunzel | <sad for a moment>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | elle to some wearing a collar is the sign of
| commitment Dom<me> and sub
ICEontap | somebody tooted :::::::::::spraying air
| freshner:::::::::::::::::::::
wry§ilk | <sad with you>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | ICE please stick to the topic in here
elle | but why, like a ring (humour me)
ICEontap | soytanly
wry§ilk | we recently have a case.. may I be specific?
tessa | I think the first step for me will be finding a
| dom...
ICEontap | so by the way ...what is the topic
rose | please do wry
*Night Spirit [HOST] | elle I have a collar which is my favorite I wear it
| to show my status to all it
Enrique de los Reyes | hi!
*Night Spirit [HOST] | is Allyn's Toy--
wry§ilk | anyone mind?
*MoL & katie j | go ahead, please, wry
rose | not me
Leda | No--wry wry--fire away
*Night Spirit [HOST] | it is like a commitment ring--yes please wry
Trisha | no please go ahead wry
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | That's what the forum is for wry
rose | wry's got the floor
wry§ilk | Bronco "collared" Red, about a day and a half after
| she had been released by
wry§ilk | another Dom..
Lady Rapunzel | Throughout history, there has been, in many
| cultures, a tradition of capturing a bride, and
| restriction was often used to keep her
Lady Rapunzel | once captured. The wedding ring, and the collar,
| and even the corset, all originate from this
| practice.
ICEontap | later all
WuWei | hello!
wry§ilk | it caused great upheaval for the parties involved
| and for the channel in
wry§ilk | general..
Trisha | go on wry.
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Did he do it non-consensually?
rose | why would it cause such upheaval if she was
| released???
daisy | <listening quietly>
wry§ilk | NOW.. another day and a half later.. she's not
| sure that she wants to do
wry§ilk | this.. upon being asked if she had discussed..
| "things" she said yes, she had..
wry§ilk | but he had been less than truthful in his
| responses..
wry§ilk | it was consensual.
elle | thank you lady r....so the capture is all....or the
| capturing by the sub?
Lady Rapunzel | It is often used as a symbol of commitment, or of
| ownership. To a certain extent, the wedding ring
| symbolises capture, as does the
Lady Rapunzel | practice of carrying the bride over the threshold.
wry§ilk | there were other parties unvolved.
wry§ilk | er.. INvolved..
*Night Spirit [HOST] | <--agrees with Lady R--listening to wry
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | If he was not truthful, then it really wasn't
| consensual in my book.
wry§ilk | this goes back to last weeks topic.. re: education..
*MoL & katie j | but the collar means different things to different
| people,
*MoL & katie j | surely?
daisy | <nodding>
wry§ilk | I think that there are those among us that don't
| have a clue.. and it's back to
wry§ilk | the education thing..
*MoL & katie j | I know som e who wear it as a status symbol more
| than
*MoL & katie j | any D/s meaning.
Leda | IMO, wry--It has become an online "ritual" and a
| rather shallow one, in some
Leda | cases. It's tantamount, sometimes, to saying "so
| and so is my boyfriend," like
Leda | middle-schoolers do--that meaningful <snort> and
| that shortlived sometimes,
Leda | silkie. <sigh>
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | How can one consent if they don't have all the
| facts?
*Lynn* | <has no clue
wry§ilk | <nod>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | I conduct collaring ceramonies as a licensed
| minister--but I beleive it to be
*Night Spirit [HOST] | like marriage, in some ways more I have in 18 yrs
| of play only been collared
*Night Spirit [HOST] | twice
*MoL & katie j | <agreeing with Leda
wry§ilk | that was one of my questions GrPa.. is it binding..
| Lady R can vouch that I
wry§ilk | have problems with this binding thing.. <g>
Lady WolfSpirit | <walks in and finds a seat>
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | And you are about to get married for the second
| time NS
Lady Rapunzel | I think that, as in all aspects of bdsm, the use of
| collars is something that is agreed consensually,
| as well as the meaning
Lady Rapunzel | perceived by the partners.
*Night Spirit [HOST] | Leda I agree, so we need to show others what
| collaring really means
elle | can you be sub without collaring?....
Lady Rapunzel | Yes, elle. Of course you can.
*Night Spirit [HOST] | yes elle you can
*MoL & katie j | sure, elle
rose | <<<<<<<<does'nt think we should discuss Red or
| Bronco when they are not here to
rose | defend themselves
wry§ilk | I'll answer that one as an uncollared sub.. yes,
| you can..
Lady WolfSpirit | <scoots over next to Lady Rap>
*MoL & katie j | can one have sex without being married?
Leda | I realize that playing online is exactly playing
| for some people--that's fine.
Leda | <s> But I think that it is important for newcomers
| to realize that collaring
Leda | does not always mean a total commitment. :-)
wry§ilk | wait rose.. I asked.
Lady Rapunzel | Collaring means slightly different things to *all*
| of us, I think, Katie.
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | I agree LR, the meaning varies according to the
| people involved.
wry§ilk | specifically asked.
Leda | Yes, Lady Rap. <s>
Lady WolfSpirit | you can have sex when married katie??..<BG>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | my collar to me--means I only submit to GrPa, but I
| have been a switch for 18
rose | not attacking you wry
*Night Spirit [HOST] | years and played long before there was a GrPa in my
| life
Lady Rapunzel | It is a traditional practice, but not one that bdsm
| invented or coined.
rose | <s>
*MoL & katie j | that's another story Lady WS <snicker>
wry§ilk | and I wasn't "picking" on anyone.
*Night Spirit [HOST] | I agree Lady R
Lady WolfSpirit | <BG>
*MoL & katie j | <snorting>
rose | I know wry, but we dont know th dynamics of their
| relationship
*Night Spirit [HOST] | wry you are correct--it is a shame so many here
| would give their submission
*Night Spirit [HOST] | away like it means nothing---and Dom<mes> who offer
| collars of no meaning
rose | the even
*MoL & katie j | the collar is a symbol of my commitment to MoL ..
| and
*MoL & katie j | we have decided between us what that means ... <s>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | <--hands katie a hankie
Lady WolfSpirit | <bows respectfully to GPDS>....its an honor to meet
| you Sir
Leda | I usually only wear my collar for my Master in
| private . . . and it *is* a
Leda | symbol of my commitment to him. <s> But just a
| symbol, so I don't attach as
Leda | much significance to it--the object--as many do. :-)
*MoL & katie j | <blows>
wry§ilk | I am kind of angry now.. I offered something NOT
| told to me in confidence.. I
wry§ilk | don't even know her.. as an example.
*MoL & katie j | <MoL>
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | We understand that you wanted the answer to a
| question wry, not if they were
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | wrong or right.
Lady Rapunzel | If we go a little deeper into the tradition and
| history of these symbols and means of capturing a
| partner, we find that the very
Lady Rapunzel | *act* of capture symbolised the strength and
| virility of the male. The collar is, for some, am
| important symbol of their....
Leda | Because my *commitment* itself, and his to me, is
| the important thing. And
Leda | that kept growing long after he physically collared
| me. :-)
Lady Rapunzel | relative weakness, and they identify this on the
| grounds of something that has been inbred and noted
| for centuries.
rose | I'm sorry wry, hope it was not me who made you angry
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Thank you Lady wolfSpirit. An honor to meet you too.
Lady WolfSpirit | <nods to GPDS>
Leda | What do you mean, Rap?
Lady Rapunzel | Well.....
*Night Spirit [HOST] | I do not wear my leather ones all the time--they
| drive me nuts---I do however
*Night Spirit [HOST] | wear my chain, but it is like a necklace means alot
| to us
Lady Rapunzel | traditionally....
*MoL & katie j | <feeling the need for a cigarette and turning
| keybo9ard
*MoL & katie j | over to MoL>
Lady Rapunzel | the male captures the female to show his virility
| and power... an Alpha Male thing, if you like...
| and to show her that he is
Lady Rapunzel | strong enough to fertilize her and provide for her
| and protect her....
rose | Night Spirit, do you know if Sir Gault is coming
| tonight?
elle | can u tell,e
Lady Rapunzel | in such cultures (and we all stem from such)....
Lady WolfSpirit | very true Lady Rap
Leda | Yes--it's common in a lot of cultures. <s>
Lady Rapunzel | the idea of capture was very important as a symbol
| that the procreation was guaranteed.
Lady Rapunzel | Therefore, these symbols of commitment, of
| ownership...
Lady Rapunzel | are often, traditionally, seen as very important in
| binding the two sexes together.
Lady Rapunzel | They are a symbol of the *closeness*, and the
| *importance* of this match.
Leda | On a symbolic level, you mean.
Leda | Yes.
Lady Rapunzel | In a very basic way.
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | To me it does NOT show my virility, or power,
| rather OUR mutual commitment in
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | this relationship. Yes it shows that I own NS, but
| ONLY because she wants me to.
Lady Rapunzel | Yes.
Lady Rapunzel | No, GrPa....
*Night Spirit [HOST] | rose no I don't, he might
Lady Rapunzel | I am not saying it still does....
Lady WolfSpirit | i for one, as a Domme was always against the idea
| of a collar.....then as a
Lady WolfSpirit | sub, i felt the same...felt being collared was
| humiliating....until a certain
Lady WolfSpirit | Master taugh me otherwise...<S>
Lady Rapunzel | I am just saying that there is something within us
| that inherently recognises this union and its
| importance...
Leda | To some degree though, too, Rap--I think there is
| can be an element of being a
Leda | Dom's "pet" implicit in it . . . or sometimes, it
| can be used as another
Leda | bondage too. <s>
Lady Rapunzel | although our values and interpretations have
| changed with societies' morals and values.
*Night Spirit [HOST] | how do you feel about it now Lady WS?
Lady WolfSpirit | i am honored to wear Elder's collar...
Lady WolfSpirit | <S>
Lady Rapunzel | The collar is still a symbol of the importance and
| potency a such union creates.
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | How nice, I got thrown out.
Leda | It can be, yes, Rap. <S>
elle | but why collar?....does that mean we are like
| animals?....if we wear one?
Lady Rapunzel | Even bondage, Leda... even this is, in a very basic
| way, a symbol of capture.
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | LR, basically, i think people need symbols of
| things to comfort us.
*MoL & katie j | <katie's back in town>
Lady WolfSpirit | no elle..that is the way i originally felt
Lady Rapunzel | Yes, GrPa. I agee.
elle | i dont really understand....
Lady WolfSpirit | but now i know it is a symbol of love and respect
| for both parties...<S>
*MoL & katie j | elle, what don't you understand?
*Night Spirit [HOST] | so since a collar is a circle and a ring is--is it
| the same?
Lady Rapunzel | Capture, for the woman, meant that she could rest
| easy in the knowledge that she would have children,
| perpetuate the line, be fed,
Lady Rapunzel | be safe, protected. All of this is what we call
| "comfort", although now we have different
| interpretations for it.
elle | well does your master respect you.....?
Lady WolfSpirit | Elder love and respects me enough to offer his
| collar...
Leda | I think it works on a lot of levels, elle--a symbol
| of ownership; a symbol of
Leda | dominance
*MoL & katie j | is the collar and D/s version of a ring?
Lady WolfSpirit | and i love and respect him enough to wear it
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | elle, the colar is a symbol of the relationship. We
| instinctually feel that as
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | long as the symbol lasts, the relationship will.
Lady Rapunzel | Perhaps, Katie, yes.
elle | I see...
*Night Spirit [HOST] | I wear my everyday one and my ring from GrPa both
| are symbols of our love
Leda | well--Rap--I think it's even more basic--if you
| could capture and keep that
Leda | which you won by the strength of your arm . . .
Leda | you could protect them.
Lady Rapunzel | Symbols of the intensity of the union, I think.
Lady Rapunzel | Exactly, Leda.
rose | elle, I dont think its like we are animals, I think
| its like we are special and
rose | loved and cherished, and belong to our Masters
Leda | And their progeny. <s>
Lady Rapunzel | Exactly.
Lady WolfSpirit | very true Leda...good point
Lady WolfSpirit | <smiles at rose>...you got it
wry§ilk | one of A's favorite saying is that chains aren't
| always made of steel..
Leda | But we've evolved since then. <g>
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | elle, I could not own someone I didn't respect. the
| relationship just wouldn't
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | work.
Lady Rapunzel | True, Leda, but in our essence, some of those needs
| remain.
rose | and we like it like that, we would not have it any
| other way
Lady Rapunzel | Comfort = the need to feel safe, protected, loved.
Leda | Yes, I agree--but I think that it is more a symbol
| of give and take now too. <S>
Lady Rapunzel | Yes, indeed.
Lady Rapunzel | But then....
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Esp. in D/s
elle | no I understand that....but...the collar...other
| things I understand, but the
elle | collar I feel uncomfortable with...but new
Lady Rapunzel | why do the subs wear the symbol, and not the Doms?
Leda | I give my submission . . . I surrender to my
| Master's will . . . and I wear his
Leda | collar to show that agreement and commitment
*Night Spirit [HOST] | rose and elle I am GrPa's property, I gave up my
| rights to him, but if he
*Night Spirit [HOST] | treated me like dirt (non-consentually) I would
| chuck him, he is respectful and
*Night Spirit [HOST] | loving
Lady Rapunzel | Why doesn't *he* wear a symbol to show his?
*Night Spirit [HOST] | Lady R--GrPa does, he wears my medal and my ring
Lady WolfSpirit | <smiles at elle>...when the right Master offers you
| his collar...you will
Lady WolfSpirit | gladly accept hon....believe me...<S>
Lady Rapunzel | Which I think is perfect, NS <smile>
Leda | That's a good point. <s> But I think that it is
| because the collar symbolizes
Leda | his ownership . . .
elle | just havent found the right master.....<s>
Lady Rapunzel | What symbolizes that for him, Leda?
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Actually LR, I wear a ring from NS, and would wear
| other things if she wanted
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | me to.
Leda | and we do not usually *say* that a sub "owns" her
| dom. <s>
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | I am proud of owning her.
Lady Rapunzel | Then you *are* going back to the basis of capture,
| Leda... aren;t you?
Lady Rapunzel | Only one wears the bindings.
Leda | Yes--that is at its root, LR
Lady Rapunzel | Not so give and take in symbolism, at least.
Lady Rapunzel | <smile>
Leda | Like the wedding ring--it's only recently that men
| began wearing them . . .
Lady Rapunzel | Endemoniado wears nothing to symbolize our union,
| our love.
elle | and if you wear the collar are you totally your
| masters?.....
*Night Spirit [HOST] | well like me I own nothing as property, so I am not
| allowed to say "my"
Leda | No--not in the tradition behind the symbolism. <s>
Lady Rapunzel | Yes, elle, but only in so much as you have agreed
| what your collar symbolizes.
elle | ns is it just intellectual? or real?
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | elle, I am her master, only as long as she wants me
| to be, and not one
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | micro-second longer.
daisy | <S>
elle | starting to understand
Lady Rapunzel | My love for him, and my submission to him, are the
| things that bind me to Endemoniado. The collar is a
| symbol, but not the essence.
Lady Rapunzel | It's a Pride <smile>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | elle it is real, I own nothing, I am not allowed
| money or anything unless he
*Night Spirit [HOST] | gives it to me--however know this--it is my
| choice--he can not and will not
*Night Spirit [HOST] | force me on anything
Lady Rapunzel | Almost showing off, in fact, now I come to think
| about it.
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | I think you have it there LR.
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Pride!
Lady Rapunzel | <smile>
Lady Rapunzel | It is my Pride.
Leda | <S>
elle | <sigh>....its sounds like love...
Lady Rapunzel | It *is*, elle.
*Night Spirit [HOST] | Lady R I think you got it--why some wear engagment
| rings, wedding rings, carry
*Night Spirit [HOST] | pictures of the kids--pride
Lady Rapunzel | Just like any other love that is intense.
rose | definatly!!
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Pleasure in showing the world your relationship.
Lady Rapunzel | Yes, NS
*Night Spirit [HOST] | elle I am very much in love with GrPa
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Yes, elle
Lady Rapunzel | So, we have taken entrapment and made it Pride. Not
| bad, for a few millenia's work, eh?
Leda | LOL!
elle | ,s>
Lady Rapunzel | <laughing>
Leda | No--not bad at all. :-)
*~tina~* | <waves quietly>
Lady Rapunzel | <smiles at tina>
Leda | Hey tina. :-)
*Night Spirit [HOST] | <ggl> well being prideful is not a sin---hugs tina
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Hi tina
rose | hi tina
*~tina~* | huggss all <s>
Lady WolfSpirit | <smiles>..well, i would like to stay, but i
| cannot...<sighs>...gotta track down
Lady WolfSpirit | my Master and accept my punishment
| gracefully....<shudders>....hugs and
Lady WolfSpirit | smooches all
*Night Spirit [HOST] | I am proud of my relationship with GrPa
Leda | Hugs, LWS. :-)
Lady Rapunzel | So... what about *types* of collar, then?
*~tina~* | byebye Lady Wolf Spirit<s>
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Have a nice LWS
elle | bye ...thanks
Lady WolfSpirit | <hugs tina>
Lady Rapunzel | <-- hugs LWS
*~tina~* | whats the topic tonight?
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | nice day that is LWS
*Night Spirit [HOST] | Night Lady WS, give him a hug from me :)
Lady Rapunzel | Collars, tina
Lady WolfSpirit | <nods to GPDS>...it was a pleasure...
*~tina~* | ahhh
*Night Spirit [HOST] | tina the topic is what is the meaning of a collar
Lady WolfSpirit | ok NS....<S>..hugggggs
*Night Spirit [HOST] | hugs LWS
Lord Excalibur | Good evening GPDS, NS and Katie and all in the room
| my apologies for being late
Lady Rapunzel | Are there those of us who hesitate to wear our
| Pride in public, for example?
*MoL & katie j | glad to have you with us, Lord E
Erek | A "collar" can be whatever two people decide is an
| appropriate symbol, not necessarily *only an actual
| collar
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Hello LE
Lady WolfSpirit | i dont any longer Lady Rap...<S>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | good evening Lord E so nice to see you--we are
| discussing the meaning of collars
Trisha | evening Lord E
Lord Excalibur | I have been watching so I have missed little
Lady Rapunzel | <- agrees with Erek
rose | Hi LE
Lady WolfSpirit | <nods to Lord E>
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | In some places a collar might not be tolerated well.
Lady Rapunzel | Can a "collar" be something other than neck
| ornamentation?
elle | you all know each other!....<s>
Lady Rapunzel | Ah, yes, GrPa.. but if we use them like others use
| wedding rings...?
Lord Excalibur | I have not had time to read all the comments yet,
| but there have been some
Lord Excalibur | interesting comments
*Night Spirit [HOST] | hello Erek nice seeing you
*~tina~* | I dont think if you dont chose to wear your collar
| 24 hours a day, that it
*~tina~* | means you are less pridful of it, I think each
| person needs to be comfortable
*~tina~* | with the arrangments within the relationship
Lord Excalibur | Lady Aireanna wears a collar and ring
Erek | As an example, I have given gold chains to my subs
| for many years, each accepts them as my collar ---
| Greetings NS
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Correct LR, but some people think everyone into D/s
| belongs in the nuthouse
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | anyway.
rose | yes, definatly, tina
Lady Rapunzel | <laughs> A whole other topic, GrPa ;)
Erek | Thought I'd stay quiet, but as usual you have a
| topic I can't resist
*Night Spirit [HOST] | does any Dom<me>s use a training collar?
Lord Excalibur | thats a topic for another night maybe
Lady WolfSpirit | <very innocent look at GPDS>...well dont we??...<BG>
*~tina~* | Master and I were dicussing my wearing /or not
| waerting my collar in my mothers
*MoL & katie j | glad to hear that, Erek
*~tina~* | presence, the other day.....lol
Lady Rapunzel | <-- would not wear a collar until it meant complete
| union, NS
elle | but tellme if I am wrong, the subs...are more in
| control than most
elle | women......<not that I know anything!)
Lady Rapunzel | <- has worn her collar in the prescence of
| Endemoniado's father
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | I would hate to meet anyone who was completely
| sane. they'd be boring.
Lady WolfSpirit | lol
Lady WolfSpirit | i agree...
*~tina~* | lol..GrPa
Lady Rapunzel | That's a whole other topic, elle ;)
Lady WolfSpirit | <waves to all on her way out>
Lord Excalibur | LA wears her in public, she feels it shows respect
| to me, plus she also likes
Lord Excalibur | the feeling
Lady Rapunzel | When I am with Endemoniado, I wear my collar all
| the time, 24/7
Lady Rapunzel | In public, private, with friends, family
Lady Rapunzel | But then....
Lady Rapunzel | my collar is silver, and has a pretty little
| padlock....
pi team1agent | hi
Lady Rapunzel | so it can be seen as jewellery, I suppose.
Erek | I've also had subs wear actual collars *in public*,
| but rarely. Perhaps that is because I see working
| collars as ...
Lady Rapunzel | It is an inch wide, which I guess helps.
Lord Excalibur | LA's was specially made it is purple leather, soft
| with gold settings and
Lord Excalibur | diamonds
Bruce | hi all
Erek | equipment for use in a scene and not just to show
| anyone my ownership.
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | It's not at all uncommon here in San Francisco Erek
elle | I know I am being difficult but sounds like ring
| you give 14 year old to
elle | say...I own her....not being rude promise, just new
Lady Rapunzel | <-- has lived and worked in London for many years,
| and I have never once seen anyone wearing what is
| obviously a collar in public.
Lord Excalibur | The gays do Lady R
Lady Rapunzel | Would you give a ring to a 14 year-old to say you
| owned her, elle?
*MoL & katie j | well, the Brits are known for their reserve, Lady R
| <s>
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Except I am not saying I own her elle, SHE is
| saying i own her.
Lady Rapunzel | <smile> *I'm* not! <laughing>
*~tina~* | I do not feel the need for a
| collar...actually....but *we* chose to waer
*~tina~* | one........but even if he didnt want me to or I
| didnt want to, it would not
*~tina~* | mean any less in our relationship
Lord Excalibur | thats correct GPDS
Leda | Mentor has had me wear my working collar in NYC--to
| a Broadway play once,
Leda | mainly, I think, because he enjoyed my discomfort.
| <g> But it's rare that I
Leda | wear that--I have a more ornamental chain-link
| choker that I wear for
Leda | "everyday."
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Many streights do here also.
Erek | elle - are you against symbols of commitment - or
| just against one that has such obvioud overtones of
| D/s??
~Mystique~™ | Hi everyone
elle | I wouldnt but boys do.....and boys do things like
| love bites....its sort of
elle | well....maybe I am unsophisticated
Lady Rapunzel | I don't know that she's *against* it, Erek.
elle | probably am
Erek | Sorry LR- was certainly a negative comment about
| collars
Lord Excalibur | There are not that many straights in the open in
| London GPDS
Lady Rapunzel | Well, each person makes their own decision, elle. I
| love my collar, and my collaring ceremony meant as
| much to me as a wedding
Lady Rapunzel | ceremony would have.... if not more.
Bruce | grand (host) basiclly what should one avoid talking
| about to stay
Bruce | safe noone ever instructed me
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | NS loves it when i leave love bite marks on her.
| She considers it a symbol of
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | my love for her.
Lady Rapunzel | Don't be sorry, Erek <smile> I just like to be
| certain.
elle | can believe that
elle | trulyu
elle | truly
Lady Rapunzel | <-- loves to bear her Lord's marks.
Erek | I wonder if folks who excahnge rings in more
| standard ceremonies would take kindly to their
| being compared to *puppy love* tokens
elle | no sorry.....
*~tina~* | hmmmmmm
Lord Excalibur | so does LA, especially before I leave to return to
| London
Lady Rapunzel | Hey... "puppy love" tokens are given with *real*
| emotions behind them.
daisy | <thinking>
Lady Rapunzel | Puppy love is real to the puppies <smile>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | love bites huh?
*~tina~* | lol
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | elle, don't be sorry.
Erek | Real yes- but tossed away as unimportant by *adults
Lady Rapunzel | <-- never tosses.... <thinking about rephrasing
| that>
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | We are here for people to ask questions and learn.
elle | no but just trying to understand.....
*Night Spirit [HOST] | yes he has to stop biting me so I can go get a
| breast exam
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | NS, you want more?
daisy | <Giggle>
wry§ilk | <Laffing>
Lord Excalibur | lol NS
Lady Rapunzel | To understand why people would want to wear a
| symbol of their love, elle?
*~tina~* | my collar/comitment means more to me than did my
| wedding....<previous marrige I
*~tina~* | mean...lol>
Lord Excalibur | LA would agree withyou tina
Erek | tina - exactly, for some people here a collar,
| whatever item that may be, means everything and we
| should not pass lightly
elle | that is enviable.....really
Lady Rapunzel | <- agrees with tina, although never married...
| Suddenly, marriage does not seem as potent to me as
| the collar is.
*~tina~* | since my collaring to Spartan...I have found a much
| deeper place within
*~tina~* | myself.......my commitment comes from there.....
Lady Rapunzel | I think....
*~tina~* | yes Erek <s>
*~tina~* | <s> Lady R...understand ...
elle | commitment is certainly a state of mind...I
| understand that much....
*Night Spirit [HOST] | my wedding ring was the hardest thing I ever had to
| remove, but I think
*Night Spirit [HOST] | removing my collar/commitment from GrPa would be
| worse
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | I was married for 30+ years in a vanilla marriage.
| My relationship with NS has
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | existed for three years. I feel closer to her than
| I ever did my first wife.
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | (Yes, I got into D/s with othere while still in the
| first marriage.)
Lady Rapunzel | I think that might be because to submit to
| Endemoniado, to make that decision, was one that I
| really struggled with, in many ways.
Lady Rapunzel | A hard one to understand, and a difficult part of
| me for me to accept and learn about. Consenting to
| submit to him was not..
Lady Rapunzel | an easy thing....but it *is* the most rewarding
| thing and the most perfect thing I have ever felt
| or experienced.
daisy | i agree<S> Lady Rap
Erek | elle - perhaps there is anothjer way for you to
| view this - as a Dom and owner/operator <g>, I do
| NOT give a collar to anyone ---
elle | how long did it take you Lady R and how hard was it?
Lord Excalibur | It is a shame LA is not here tonight she would have
| agreed with everything that
Lord Excalibur | is being said
Erek | It means as much to me to give it as it means to
| them to have it/
Lady Rapunzel | A *long* time, elle, to learn about this side of
| me...
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | I think the trust in a good D/s relationship makes
| for a much tighter bond.
*~tina~* | I think thats its something most of us stuggle to
| find in a Dom/me..... a place
*~tina~* | of complete trust and mutual respect...
Lady Rapunzel | and longer still to accept it.
Lady Rapunzel | And still I learn, grow, with him.
*~tina~* | oops...and also in a sub<s>
Lady Rapunzel | <-- has only just reached the stage of being able
| to start learning.
*Night Spirit [HOST] | to find someone you can trust, love, care for and
| honour is difficult--but
*Night Spirit [HOST] | worth it
Lady Rapunzel | That was the hardest part.
wry§ilk | I learned and grew and set myself adrift.. and
| things are very confusing right
wry§ilk | now..
elle | was it hard at first?
*MoL & katie j | trust, love ... and respect ... the best foundation
| <s>
Lady Rapunzel | To be able to give your life, your body, your soul
| to someone... *one* someone... and trust them
| completely with all of that?
Lady Rapunzel | Nothing is harder.
*~tina~* | <---is still hard for me......think it prolly will
| be always
Lady Rapunzel | Yes, tina. I agree.
*MoL & katie j | <agrees with Lady R
Lady Rapunzel | But *nothing* is more fulfilling, more satisfying,
| more *right*, for me at least.
*MoL & katie j | and yes, that came from MoL <s>
Lady Rapunzel | GOSH!
*Night Spirit [HOST] | it's odd I trust GrPa more then ever my ex hubby,
| nothing bad about ex, just
*Night Spirit [HOST] | nothing there--like the magic I feel with GrPa
Lady Rapunzel | <faints>
elle | I have with someone....and was the most erotic time
| I have ever had....
Lady Rapunzel | Magic. Yes.
Erek | tina- but would it mean as much if it were easy???
| What meaning would it have if anyone could do it
| without thought or effort?
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | That, LR, is the difference between vanilla
| marriage, and D/s relationships.
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | That's why we collar I think. To symbolize
| something different, something more.
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | . .
*MoL & katie j | <has great admiration for Lady R tonight <s>
daisy | <S>
Lady Rapunzel | Some things are easy, Erek. Loving Endemoniado
| takes, and took, no effort at all.
Lady Rapunzel | <smile>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | true Erek--Erek you and kisa have been together a
| while, how long did you know
*Night Spirit [HOST] | her before collaring her?
*~tina~* | absolutely agree Erek....!!!........ditto Lady
| R.....
Lady Rapunzel | Yes, GrPa. It's a truly potent, rich, and enriching
| love, IMHO.
Erek | LR- Emotions are - they either exist or not - but
| to conciously stive to give oneself - not so easy,
| even when driven by that --
Erek | emotion, love. <s>
*MoL & katie j | <hs to go ...... hugs and shakes to all <s>
*~tina~* | loving Spartan is easy I think....it my desire to
| submit to him that challenges
*~tina~* | me....
Erek | NS- Over a year before we even really started
| courting
Lady Rapunzel | I agree, Erek. I agree completely. If that part
| were easy, IMHO, it would not be as fulfilling, nor
| would we be able to explore and
Lady Rapunzel | therefore learn about ourselves as much, and with
| such intensity.
Lady Rapunzel | One of the hardest things for me is to face the
| mirror that Endemoniado holds up for me to look in.
Lady Rapunzel | Just simply turning and facing, let alone studying,
| is so difficult.
*~tina~* | he challenges me in many ways, and in that I learn
| so much more about myself
daisy | <nodding>
*~tina~* | that was beautiful Lady R <s>
Erek | We were friends for all that first year, and never
| considered playing with each other - then
| someything went *CLICK
Lady Rapunzel | <smile>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | well to me a D/s relationship has challenges, keeps
| it fresh, alive...my
*Night Spirit [HOST] | marriage was then sank quickly.....
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | I try to give NS what she needs, and she tries to
| give me what I need.
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Together, we make a whole, satisfied, happy, loving
| couple. the collar
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | symbolizes that.
Lady Rapunzel | The collar, for me, is a small piece of that
| mirror, tina. One that I wear to remind me that I
| *can* face it, and one that I wear
Lady Rapunzel | to remind me that he is always, *always* there with
| me.
elle | I think that is wonderful....
Lady Rapunzel | And one that I wear to show my Pride in him, in us,
| and my willingness to give to him in return.
*Night Spirit [HOST] | Lady R I agree there...GrPa and I see it as a
| goal--our lives each day we try
*Night Spirit [HOST] | to acheive the goal together..we are both a part of
| the whole and the whole is
*Night Spirit [HOST] | us
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Agree LR
Lord Excalibur | <sitting back and letting LAdy R says much the same
| as me>
*~tina~* | <s>
daisy | <sorry to leave such thoughtful company>i must
| run...goodnite to all
Lady Rapunzel | So the collar, interestingly, has other roots in
| tradition....
elle | but isnt it true that men that dominate in that
| way, truly love their women?
*~tina~* | nite daisy...
Lord Excalibur | yes elle it is
Lady Rapunzel | sexually, the symbol of the snake eating its tail
| has always been used in many cultures...
elle | I think so
Erek | elle - not always I fear
Lady Rapunzel | and this, as well as a symbol of the whole that we,
| as partners, as lovers, make.
elle | well can tell when they dont
Erek | But we always hope that it will be so
Lady Rapunzel | It *embraces* our love, our union.
Lord Excalibur | sorry Erek speaking for myself there
Lady Rapunzel | The ring.. complete, no ends... no divisions.
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | It doesn't mean we don't fight. I don't think two
| people that care for each
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | other can avoid that. It does mean that, in the
| long run, it doesn't matter. We
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | are there for each other.
Lady Rapunzel | The snake, coiled to make the ring.
*~tina~* | <sighing......we are fotuante people...
Erek | Excal - of course - I was being too general
elle | sure its not always, but it seems to me the
| intelligent ones.
Lady Rapunzel | <smile>
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Yes elle, I dearly love NS, and would defend her
| with my life.
Lady Rapunzel | And she would give hers to defend you, GrPa.
*Night Spirit [HOST] | elle we can hope--the leather flag has meaning--it
| is black and blue--leather
*Night Spirit [HOST] | and levi, separated by white--the tops and bottoms
| apart, yet a heart is on the
*Night Spirit [HOST] | top--meaning the top should always love the
| bottom--but do they?
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | True zLR
Lord Excalibur | that is the way with LA and I
*Night Spirit [HOST] | Lady R I will?..planning something?
elle | lucky you....<s>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | <--not eating the mushrooms tonight
*~tina~* | lol
Lady Rapunzel | <laughing> NS
elle | is abuse part of the relationship?
Lady Rapunzel | Whoa. *New* topic
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | I hurt her, but I don't injure her, and I will
| allow no other to either.
Lady Rapunzel | Safe, sane and consensual, elle.
elle | am being abused now.....by someone...just verbally
| cause I amhere
Lord Excalibur | agrees with Lady R
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | No, abuse is not part of it.
elle | well thank you for your knowledge....he is
| upsettingme...so will go!
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Abuse is something that is not part of D/s
elle | no I didnt think so
*Night Spirit [HOST] | elle of course not--abuse is non-consentual I would
| never allow myself to be
*Night Spirit [HOST] | abused <again>..what we do we do together because
| we want to
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | You are welcome any time elle.
elle | yes....
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | we do this every Suinday at this time
Lady Rapunzel | <smiles at elle>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | elle it was nice meeting you
Erek | "One pill makes you larger, the other makes you
| small - and the ones that mother gives you don't do
| anything at all."
Erek | be welcome elle
Lady Rapunzel | <-- wonders why Leda has become so quiet
Leda | I'm here, Rap. <g>
Leda | I do shut up occasionally. ;-)
Lady Rapunzel | <smile> Just checking, hon
*Night Spirit [HOST] | OK folks it is after 6 here and so any last words
| before we go?
Lady Rapunzel | Thanks for another good evening, NS, GrPa, Katie
| <smile>
Leda | Yes--just wondering if we are really going to hold
| a CO in 10, and when, if so?
*~tina~* | wonderful Co...even though I was late....
Lady Rapunzel | Yes, yes.. what Leda said!
Lady Rapunzel | <- stands behind Leda and says "Yeah" a lot.
*Night Spirit [HOST] | thank you Lady R I really enjoyed your comments as
| well as Leda and the rest of
*Night Spirit [HOST] | you
Lady Rapunzel | <smile>
Leda | :-)
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Night LR
wry§ilk | next weeks topic?
wry§ilk | and... I hope that I didn't offend anyone..
Lady Rapunzel | You? Never, silk <smile>
Lord Excalibur | goodnight Lady R
*Night Spirit [HOST] | this week Miss Katie, GrPa and I shall be
| discussing topics, keep your email
*Night Spirit [HOST] | open and you all may post here in IChat anytime in
| sub pub or bound to please
elle | night Lady R, thanks .....<s>
Lady Rapunzel | Take care, all.... oh, before I go... CO in room
| 10, please?
*Night Spirit [HOST] | never wry :)
Lady Rapunzel | GrPa?
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Yes?
Lady Rapunzel | You know, the other night....
Lady Rapunzel | we had a *great* discussion in room 10
Leda | <standing behind Rap now and nodding a lot> ;-)
Lady Rapunzel | <laughing>
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Prohib/ignore him
*~tina~* | laffing at you both....
Lady Rapunzel | It was fabulous.. .a really serious talk
Lady Rapunzel | IN the room
Lady Rapunzel | How about it, guys?
*~tina~* | darn I always miss them there LadY R
Lady Rapunzel | Purllleeeezzze? <trying the cute trick>
Leda | <S> Even tonight--our clamp chat was really good.
| :-) Serious, even. <g>
Lady Rapunzel | <whispers over her shoulder to Leda> How'm I doing,
| kid?
*Night Spirit [HOST] | Lady R send us all a note when to come to one
Lady Rapunzel | May Leda and I take on that task of organization?
Lord Excalibur | me as well Lady R
Lady Rapunzel | Leda, how about it, hon?
Lady Rapunzel | Grrrrrl?
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | You set it up LR, and we will try it.
*Night Spirit [HOST] | <--will now end the recording--to be posted soon in
| the D/s gallery here in
*Night Spirit [HOST] | IChat
Lady Rapunzel | <smile> Yes, Sir! Thanks, GrPa ;)
Leda | Well, my organizational skills suck, but just tell
| me what to do and I'll do my
Leda | best. <G>
Leda | Grrrrrrrrlllll <laffin>
Lady Rapunzel | <laughing too> Going back to the village... see you
| there ;)
Leda | Thank you, GPDS and NS. :-) Hope to see you
| soon--take care. <S>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | you too Leda
********** 4/19/98 6:13 PM End logging Sub Pub - D/s.