Contracts & Pre-Negotiation
********** 5/24/98 4:56 PM Begin logging Sub Pub - D/s.
Big Billy | alright mates
Kiwi | Hi night spirit
*Night Spirit [HOST] | hiya kiwi
Lord Excalibur | <entering room leading LA > good evening all
Lady Aireanna | good evening everyone.
Lady Aireanna | goodevening NS
fit to be tied | good evening LE..LA... NS...<G>
! PK' crickett | <peeking in> damn! i made it on time for once!
| <laffen>
Lord Excalibur | NS thank you for your kind words about me
fit to be tied | <nothing like typing in shorthand>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | good evening Lord E and Lady A and hiya fit and
| crickett
Lady Aireanna | smiling at NS
! PK' crickett | ~~~~~~waving at NS
K> Mac | howdy
*Night Spirit [HOST] | Lord E you weren't supposed to read them <s>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | hiya Kelly
K> Mac | hugs NS
fit to be tied | hey Kelly.. you found us
Lady Aireanna | kneeling to LE on his left
Lord Excalibur | oh but my darling LA is so good she shows me
| everything
K> Mac | yes fit
! PK' crickett | pout pout pout <<fit >>pout pout pout again!!!
| <laffen>
! PK' crickett | oohhh goody you made it kelly
fit to be tied | <BG>... thanks crick
K> Mac | thanks crickee
*Night Spirit [HOST] | Lady A--geez thanks sis
! PK' crickett | wweeee...i have 5 more days till i get to met PK!!!
K> Mac | i remember i was here once before
Lady Aireanna | your are so very welcome NS.........
! PK' crickett | YIPEEEE!!!
Lady Aireanna | it is my honor
! PK' crickett | <dancing around fit!!!>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | oh crickett hopes its all you would want it to be
fit to be tied | <laffin>.... i am glad you are so happy hun
Lord Excalibur | you sound very happy PK c
K> Mac | OK so what are we talking about tonite?
! PK' crickett | me too! me too!!!!
Lady Aireanna | <S>
! PK' crickett | oohh fit then i get to met you the next day!!!
Lady Aireanna | sooo cute!
Lord Excalibur | I remember a little dancing from someone <s>
fit to be tied | yep you sure do hun...<G>
! PK' crickett | <dancing around fit AGAIN!>
fit to be tied | LOL
Lord Excalibur | <glancing down at LA>
Lady Aireanna | looking up at LE
Lady Aireanna | <s>
! PK' crickett | weeeeeeeee.........
fit to be tied | <gonna have to tie crick down tonight i think>
Lady Aireanna | lol
! PK' crickett | <giggling>
fit to be tied | like she would mind....
! PK' crickett | oohhh hello LE and LA
! PK' crickett | ooohhhh weeeeeeeeee
! PK' crickett | hee hee fit
*Night Spirit [HOST] | today we shall discuss the written side of D/s when
| all have
*Night Spirit [HOST] | arrived--pre-negoatation and contracts
fit to be tied | <thinks this topic is way over her head>
! PK' crickett | i just have to look for a red head with orange
| streaks when i see you!
*Night Spirit [HOST] | I now have a BDSM page if you wish to put a copy of
| your contract or agreements
*Night Spirit [HOST] | up let me know
! PK' crickett | ooppss sorry
! PK' crickett | <quiet>
fit to be tied | LOL crick
*Night Spirit [HOST] | soon as I find mine I plan to post them again
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Hello all
MoL's Katie J | <running in the room, and crashing into MoL's chair>
fit to be tied | hello GrPa
Lord Excalibur | good evening GPDS
fit to be tied | huggggsssss KKJ
! PK' crickett | i think i have them NS...you sent them to me....
*Night Spirit [HOST] | I also for those who wish it will post your
| pictures on a page
MoL's Katie J | Good Evening, GrandPaDeSade
MoL's Katie J | huggggggggs, ffit
fit to be tied | picture...<perk>
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Hi there fit, LE, and Katie
*Night Spirit [HOST] | my own contract?..kewl I have the pre-negoation I
| have 3 on the site
! PK' crickett | ditto with fit!
MoL's Katie J | good evening, Lord Excalibur
Lady Aireanna | good evening GPDS
MoL's Katie J | hugggggs, crickett
*Night Spirit [HOST] | GrPa where is my contract?
! PK' crickett | huggss katie
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Good evning to you M'Lady
Lady Aireanna | <s>
MoL's Katie J | good to see you Lady Aireanna <s>
fit to be tied | hello o... hugs
Lord Excalibur | I have some new ones of myself and LA I will let
| you have them ......... good
Lord Excalibur | evening Mol Katie J
Lady Aireanna | Hello Katie J
Lady Aireanna | nice to see you again
*Night Spirit [HOST] | thank you Lord E
AH | Hi i m new here
*Night Spirit [HOST] | welcome AH :)
MoL's Katie J | hello, AH
Lady Aireanna | Hello AH
fit to be tied | hello lost.....<G>
*mystic rain* | <slips quietly in>
AH | Were are you all?
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Don't tell them about your contract NS. It;'s not a
| good example.
*mystic rain* | hello ~~
fit to be tied | hugggsssss mr...<G>
Lord Excalibur | hello AH
lostonearth | hello, fit (s)
K> Mac | mystic rain hugs
Lady Aireanna | lol
MoL's Katie J | we're starting a discussion on D/s contracts and
| negotiations <s>
*mystic rain* | hugggssss fit
*mystic rain* | hello loe Sir, <s>
*mystic rain* | huggs Kelly
MoL's Katie J | hugggggs. mystic
Lord Excalibur | hi mystic
lostonearth | (wandering over to corner and sitting back to only
| listen
lostonearth | tonight)
*mystic rain* | huggsss Katie <s>
MoL's Katie J | good evening, lost <S>
! PK' crickett | ~~~~~~~`waving at mc!
lostonearth | hello, mystic rain
*mystic rain* | goodevening Lord E, Sir <s>
! PK' crickett | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`waving at loe
*mystic rain* | hey crick!!! huggs
*Night Spirit [HOST] | OK ladies and Gentlemen and Lord E <wink> today we
| are going to discuss
*Night Spirit [HOST] | contracts, the written side of our lives....also
| not I will post this CO in the
*Night Spirit [HOST] | forum and the site afterwards
lostonearth | hello, katie (s)
Rd REd Wine <hic> | hey guys <sss>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | All the past IChat CO's are now posted up to date
lostonearth | shakes and hugs to grpadsade and night spirit
*Night Spirit [HOST] | how many here actually have signed a contract
| (BDSM) contract?
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Hello lost. Welcome.
*Night Spirit [HOST] | hugs lostonearth
fit to be tied | not me
*mystic rain* | goodevening NS and GrPa, Sir <s>
Lord Excalibur | We do NS
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Evening mystic
! PK' crickett | not me either.....
*mystic rain* | not me
MoL's Katie J | I have not.
*Night Spirit [HOST] | Lord E why did you do it--what does it mean to you?
| and Lady A
Rd REd Wine <hic> | sorry lost here a contract for what???
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Ownership
Lord Excalibur | It makes our relatuionship more perminant, more
| meaningful
*Night Spirit [HOST] | RED many into the lifestyle of BDSM have a written
| contract between a Dom and
*Night Spirit [HOST] | sub
Lady Aireanna | <s>
Rd REd Wine <hic> | oops wrong forum <sigh>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | Lord E who wrote it?
Lady Aireanna | more bound.
Lady Aireanna | <s>
Lord Excalibur | we each wrote our own and exchanged them
*Night Spirit [HOST] | how long is it?
Lord Excalibur | the version we have at present is quite
| short..........
Lord Excalibur | although a longer more elaborate one is to be
| signed next time we are together
*Night Spirit [HOST] | Lord E forgive me for sticking you on the hot seat
| but could you give us some
*Night Spirit [HOST] | idea what it covers?
MoL's Katie J | what sort of things are included?
Lord Excalibur | yes of course
*Night Spirit [HOST] | thanks you Lord E
Lord Excalibur | the letters we exchanged covered our commitment to
| each other.........
Lady Aireanna | smiling up at LE
Lord Excalibur | what I expext of LA........ what I offer to LA
| ........
Lord Excalibur | you may answer as well my darling
Lady Aireanna | it is really more of a personnal letter of sorts
Lord Excalibur | our limitations had already been discussed and will
| be in the full version
Lady Aireanna | explaining everything to him that I will offer and
| give.
MoL's Katie J | NS, what do you think needs to be in a contract?
Lady Aireanna | with is basically everything
Lady Aireanna | I have no limitations with LE
MoL's Katie J | or Grandpa?
kisses & passion (f) | May I ask the topic this evening?
MoL's Katie J | Welcome to our D/s conference .. tonight's topic,
| contracts and negotiations
kisses & passion (f) | Thank you.
MoL's Katie J | <s>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | topic is contracts and negoation in a BDSM
| relationship
*Night Spirit [HOST] | thanks Katie
MoL's Katie J | <loaded and ready, NS
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Alright, NS, you can tell them about ours. BUT
| understanding that one like ours
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | can only be used with someone you already trust
| implicitly!
Lady Aireanna | understanding completely.
Lord Excalibur | GPDS I believe that a contract should not be signed
| until the total trust is
Lord Excalibur | there anyway
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | I would agree LE
*Night Spirit [HOST] | My contract is one I wrote, I basically give all to
| GrPa and I get 3
*Night Spirit [HOST] | things--right to enter, right to leave and rights
| to use safewords
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | But not everyone feels that way.
Lord Excalibur | perhaps maybe a contract of understanding, but a
| formal bond is for the
Lord Excalibur | dedicated such as NS and yourself and LA and I
o | Lady A, might i ask youa question about something
| you said earlier...which also relates ot what Lord
| E jsut said
Lady Aireanna | yes of course
o | you said...that a written contract...makes it more
| bound...i wondered why you said that?
*Night Spirit [HOST] | good question..Lady A?
Lady Aireanna | it proves to him......of me.........my binding to
| him for all time
Lady Aireanna | and we also believe
lostonearth | (voice from the corner) but can any of you agree
| that
lostonearth | there are cases where, for example, the dominant has
lostonearth | far more experience than the submissive and the
Lady Aireanna | that we will be together even in the hereafter
lostonearth | submissive may trust (but not totally) but still be
lostonearth | apprehensive and that a contract can help reduce
| that
lostonearth | apprehension so that the trust can continue to
| build?
*Night Spirit [HOST] | to some the written contract is more valuible then
| a wedding license
Lord Excalibur | this is the case with us NS
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Yes lost
Lady Aireanna | absolutely
*Night Spirit [HOST] | good point lost
Lady Aireanna | very great point lost
o | <smiles>...yes Lady A...i believe that i am
| Master's...for all time...for now...for
| ever...before time even...but...i have no
o | written contract...and do not believe i am less
| bound because of that
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | bUT SOME MEASURE OF TRUST NEEDS TO BE THERE. YOU
| CAN'T BUILD ON NOTHING.
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Sorry, caps lock.
Lord Excalibur | yes lost but ............ beat me to it GPDS
Lady Aireanna | <s>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | when GrPa and I met--we were married to other
| people--the contract was a way to
*Night Spirit [HOST] | seal our love for each other, I also received my
| collar then
MoL's Katie J | there goes GrandPa getting dominant again <G>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | LOL Katie :)
Lady Aireanna | it helps reafirm my commitment for me o.
Lord Excalibur | lol Mol Katie J
Lady Aireanna | I like to see it in writing
Lady Aireanna | we are far apart
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | WHO? ME?
Lady Aireanna | lol
Lord Excalibur | surely not GPDS
lostonearth | i stipulated that, grpa, but your restatement of
| that is
lostonearth | necessary for those less experienced to be
| absolutely
lostonearth | certain of what i said. thank you
Lady Aireanna | <s>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | o I wrote the contract and signed the contract as a
| Chritmas gift for GrPa,
*Night Spirit [HOST] | little did I know he had my everyday collar for me
Lady Aireanna | oh how beautiful NS
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | I know lost, I just wanted to make sure it was
| clear.
*mystic rain* | <s>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | as you all suspect---this contract in a court of
| law is nothing
Lady Aireanna | very nice gift indeed
*Night Spirit [HOST] | I thought so <wink>
Lady Aireanna | in our court...........it is everything
Lady Aireanna | <s>
fit to be tied | <thinking it could show consent.....>
Lady Aireanna | forgive my humor NS
lostonearth | i am glad you did it, grpa. i can sometimes be
| unclear
lostonearth | (g)
*Night Spirit [HOST] | the contract is something us only
o | yes NS...it's just...i'm not sure that it being
| written...makes you more bound
Lord Excalibur | NS LA and I knew each other in Vanilla, so there
| was already trust, it was
Lord Excalibur | after our first D/s meeting that we knew for
| certain we had each found our
Lord Excalibur | place in life
*Night Spirit [HOST] | Lady A--personally I liked it
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | You can not consent to be beaten in this country.
Lady Aireanna | <s>....lowering my head and eyes, thank you NS
*Night Spirit [HOST] | o no, it doesn't what actually makes you more bound
| is the trust you give
*Night Spirit [HOST] | it---we all make our relationships what they are
MoL's Katie J | MoL does not believe in contracts ... so there will
| be none with us.
Lady Aireanna | nodding.
Lord Excalibur | very true NS
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | The law says you can not consent to do what we do.
| the contract shows nothing
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | in the eyes of the law. Only for us.
*Night Spirit [HOST] | I wrote the contract for GrPa to show him I give
| him everything cuz I loved
*Night Spirit [HOST] | him--everything was me
fit to be tied | <sigh>.... <not going to go down this road tonight>
Lady Aireanna | which is what really matters is it not GPDS
*Night Spirit [HOST] | fit? please you have something to offer?
! PK' crickett | so this contract........it one written between the
| two that
! PK' crickett | participate.......and it should be as an original
| as the relationship
! PK' crickett | itself........what i mean is that what is good
| between one Dom and sub.....may
! PK' crickett | not be be best for another?
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Katie, you still have what would be seen as a
| verbal contract don't you?
MoL's Katie J | yes, we do GrandPa .. we have discussed many issues
| and agreed on them.
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | fit, please contribute if you have an opionion
*Night Spirit [HOST] | crickett that is very true---you can get good
| examples of what to write--but it
*Night Spirit [HOST] | is what you make it
fit to be tied | not really NS... just some legal arguments
| proffered from a prosecutor i know
Lady Aireanna | listening to fit......
*Night Spirit [HOST] | oh please tell us more <listening>
Lord Excalibur | a contract can be as little or as long as you wish,
| it just has to say what you
Lord Excalibur | feel
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Then you have information we don't. Please continue.
Lady Aireanna | yes please fit.......
fit to be tied | oh dear.....<G>
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | (Btw, do you mind telling us what state or country
| fit?
Lady Aireanna | very interested in hearing....
Lord Excalibur | yes fit please do, although my laws are a little
| differant to yours
fit to be tied | consent is always a defense to a civil action.....
*Night Spirit [HOST] | <--hands fit a blindfold> try this :)
fit to be tied | LOL... thanks NS
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Civil, but not criminal is it?
fit to be tied | i am in New Hampshire GrPa
fit to be tied | well that depends GrPa.... i could very well be
*Night Spirit [HOST] | that part is hard..what is consent and what isn't
| and some think of insane just
*Night Spirit [HOST] | for living this lifestyle
fit to be tied | consent is a braod term tossed about loosely by the
| courts
*Night Spirit [HOST] | yes fit I agree
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | I suppose the real problem there is that even if
| you win, you lose in the
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | process.
*Night Spirit [HOST] | true
fit to be tied | but assault and or battery by definition is
| unpriviledged physical contact
fit to be tied | consent blows that out of the water
fit to be tied | in all states.....
*Night Spirit [HOST] | ok another poll how many here have ever in writing
| done a negoation type letter
*Night Spirit [HOST] | or contract with your partner?
fit to be tied | so they get around it by using other laws
lostonearth | if it means anything here, my contract with sutra
| is verbal
lostonearth | and basically the same as grpas and night spirits',
| with
lostonearth | addendums that allow me to participate in teaching
| and
lostonearth | counseling of others in the d/s community (which
lostonearth | involves my spending time and/or effort with
| others).
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | In California, the state has persued assult when
| the "victim" refused to press
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | charges because itr was consentual/
lostonearth | however, i have extensively used written contracts
| in the
lostonearth | past.
lostonearth | especially when teaching..............
Erek & kisa | Greetings to all and our apologies for the late
| arrival
fit to be tied | that happens all over GrPa..... there is a reall
| problem there
MoL's Katie J | Welcome to our D/s conference .. tonight's topic,
| contracts and negotiations
lostonearth | and i did not know the "student" well
*Night Spirit [HOST] | oh good greetings Erek and kisa
fit to be tied | hello Erek and kisa
*Night Spirit [HOST] | Erek di you and kisa have a written contract?
*Night Spirit [HOST] | di=do
Erek & kisa | NS - NO we did not write it out, but we have a
| verbal contract, which includes the right to
| renegotiate and a full communication
lostonearth | there are ways to write a contract that will
| protect you
lostonearth | from the law (criminal and civil) as far as charges
| being
lostonearth | persued in court even though there may be an arrest
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | That's why i said it didn't really make any
| difference. The law is what the
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | police and the courts say it is, and that may and
| does vary from case to case.
Lady Aireanna | absolutely
Lord Excalibur | agree GPDS
Lady Aireanna | especially in Calif.
lostonearth | the police attitude is to arrest and let the courts
| sort it out
fit to be tied | too often the defense does not want to put out the
| whole D/s relationship in
fit to be tied | open court.....
*Night Spirit [HOST] | ok---what are some of the items the written and/or
| verbal contract should cover?
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | For many lost, being exposed as being into D/s will
| already have destroyed
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | their lives.
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | If they win no longer matters.
fit to be tied | <nodding>.... hence the trouble
lostonearth | i agree, grpa
Erek & kisa | fit - it's most unlikely to get into *perspective,
| most of the physical acts within D/s are considered
| criminal <shrug>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | ok once more what should a contract cover?
! PK' crickett | <sits..............and now is
| confused>..................why the trouble...and
! PK' crickett | why do they lose? i mean if there is consent
| between adults?
Erek & kisa | Like another person once said about guns, decide to
| be or not be an outlaw
Lord Excalibur | not wishing to be flipant, but this is a serious
| point, if anyone is worried
Lord Excalibur | about the law, do any of us know a lawyer in D/s?
Lady Aireanna | Master....
lostonearth | i am just saying that i have attorney friends who
| have
lostonearth | shown me ways to protect myself from being found
| guilty
lostonearth | in court. they do agree that arrest may occur in
| cases,
lostonearth | but what they are saying is that if you can stop it
| there,
lostonearth | the "damage" in minmized
fit to be tied | <---- D/s lawyer
*Night Spirit [HOST] | I do Lord E--several
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Well, can you imagine me flogging NS on Market
| street in downtown San
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Francisco? That image tends to put the police
| attitude more into perspective.
fit to be tied | <---- married to a D/s prosecutor
Erek & kisa | lost -your lawyer is nuts - example: one cannot
| give up the right to sue for injuries; and you
| can't stop a DA from
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | lost, any info you can give us on this, I for one,
| would appreciate.
Erek & kisa | deciding to and prosecuting on criminal assault
| charges
! PK' crickett | but that GP is public display....that i can
| understand.
*Night Spirit [HOST] | GrPa you have---SF is not like other places they
| actually do public street
*Night Spirit [HOST] | floggings here
*Night Spirit [HOST] | are we criminals?
Lord Excalibur | and myself lost, I do not have anyone in the
| proffesion that I know off
fit to be tied | no NS....
marianne | .:peeking in listening::..
Erek & kisa | Now the p[olice *may look the other way, but no
| contract can protect you from prosecution.
*Night Spirit [HOST] | hello marianne
fit to be tied | that falls to the jury
marianne | hello Night Spirit ..:warm smile::..
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | But, the police view of private play is the same.
*Night Spirit [HOST] | so a contract is like I said between us---
! PK' crickett | no i am not saying that NS...what i am saying that
| is public...what you do in
! PK' crickett | your home is by your consent...the public didnt
| give consent to watch.
fit to be tied | but a prosecutor does have absolute discretion
| whether or not to presecute
Erek & kisa | crickett - it matters not --- murder in your home
| is still murder
Erek & kisa | assualt is still assault
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Yes, NS, but ewe picked our spot carefully.
! PK' crickett | but murder is not consented.
Erek & kisa | You have to hope that no one decides to take you to
| issue
Erek & kisa | crickett - nor by the definition of the civil laws
| is assualt
Erek & kisa | assault
Erek & kisa | sheesh
*Night Spirit [HOST] | well see it this way....GrPa and I are walking down
| a street, I suddenly lay
*Night Spirit [HOST] | over his lap <after he sat down> and beg loudly to
| be spanked and he
*Night Spirit [HOST] | does---unlawful?
fit to be tied | crick.... the problem is that society thinks that
| any one who allows themself
fit to be tied | to be "beaten" in some fashion must be so
| psycologically damged that they
fit to be tied | cannot give consent
marianne | Ohh gosh, may I watch NS? :weg::
marianne | ::giggling::..
Erek & kisa | NS - depends on the exact definition of assault in
| your area - most likely it is
lostonearth | a prosecutor can decide to prosecute, but with
| written
lostonearth | notarized contract permitting specific actions a
| good
lostonearth | defense attorney can show that if those actions
| were not
lostonearth | exceeded and the submissive refuses to testify,
| there is
lostonearth | little chance that a prosecutor will win and that
| usually
lostonearth | causes them to not prosecute.
Lord Excalibur | Friends are we not getting to deep here, surely
| when we say we have contracts
Lord Excalibur | we others it is because we trust and love that
| person, if a relationship is
Lord Excalibur | going sour would we not retract before it became a
| case where the law was
Lord Excalibur | involved
Erek & kisa | lost - not so
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | We have done it. In public.
! PK' crickett | ok fit...i see i am over my head....thanks <s>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | ok folks let's track back
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Anyway, we were discussing contracts.
Erek & kisa | the state - for *our *own *good may prosecute
*Night Spirit [HOST] | contracts can be verbal or written
fit to be tied | <tried to not go down this road....sorry..<g>>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | agreed upon by all sides concerned
Kiwi | has anyone here had legal problems as a result of
| their relationships?
Erek & kisa | It's happened in severa; states already very
| recently
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Thank you lost!
*Night Spirit [HOST] | but basically may not cover anyone in some courts
| as to assult
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | The notarized is a good idea.
*Night Spirit [HOST] | so basically it is what you make it, and more or
| less not legally binding in
*Night Spirit [HOST] | some states
*Night Spirit [HOST] | now on to part 2--negoations
*Night Spirit [HOST] | what should it include?
Erek & kisa | You canNOT agree, consent to, a criminal action and
| have it suddenly be legal
single black male | hi
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | You would obviously not have been openly forced to
| sign then.
The Genitorturess | Hey Squealer
lostonearth | notarized shows that there was agreement while the 2
lostonearth | were not incapacitated due to intoxicants and that
| it was
lostonearth | thought out
Squealer | Hello..
MoL's Katie J | Welcome to our D/s conference .. tonight's topic,
| contracts and negotiations
*Night Spirit [HOST] | hello all the new folks that joined us
The Genitorturess | r u naked again Squealer?
*Night Spirit [HOST] | now back to the subject
Squealer | SHH silly!
*Night Spirit [HOST] | negotiations
Erek & kisa | Kisa's brother is a criminal prosecutor and he
| won't proceed against her, but niether would he
| defend her and has told her so
*Night Spirit [HOST] | what should be in them?
Erek & kisa | Sorry NS
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Gennitorture, we are in the middle of a CO
*Night Spirit [HOST] | :) Erek
*Night Spirit [HOST] | now what should be in the negotiations pre meeting
| or otherwise
The Genitorturess | I apologise, I thought this was a fetish room
*Night Spirit [HOST] | what should a person put in it?
*Night Spirit [HOST] | nope sub pub
The Genitorturess | exactly
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | The CO will be over around 6 PM PST
Lord Excalibur | as much as possible to cover all eventualities
*Night Spirit [HOST] | fetish is down the hall and empty
Erek & kisa | D/s Contracts are between those involved and should
| not be construed as going out side that
| relationship - and they are necessary
*Night Spirit [HOST] | Lord E--such as?
The Genitorturess | Thankyou
The Genitorturess | <exits with squealer at heels>
fit to be tied | they are Erek?
Lord Excalibur | what is acceptable what is not
Lord Excalibur | such as the use of gags
Lord Excalibur | blindfolds
*Night Spirit [HOST] | well can you give an example what is acceptable and
| what is NOT
Lord Excalibur | whips
Lord Excalibur | etc
Erek & kisa | A contract should be a statement of your negotiated
| agreements
Lord Excalibur | etc
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | And your limits
fit to be tied | of course.. but did you say they were necessary?
Lord Excalibur | yes GPDS
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Both hard and soft limits
Erek & kisa | Often a simple one would be what is NOT acceptable
| - the absolute limits
lostonearth | both parties separately list what their
| limits/expectations
lostonearth | are and, after comparison, the common ones are
lostonearth | accepted and the others are compromised upon or
lostonearth | rejected per agreement
*Night Spirit [HOST] | on our website I have 3 pre-negotiations one medium
| size, one short one and one
*Night Spirit [HOST] | 16 page one from Jay wiseman who wrote SM101
fit to be tied | communication is necessary... but a written
| contract?
Lord Excalibur | yes Erek
*Night Spirit [HOST] | for any of your uses
Erek & kisa | and that goes for both the sub and the Dom
Erek & kisa | I for instance will not do bloodsports or anything
| likely to cause bleeding - nor fire play
*Night Spirit [HOST] | fit to some having it in writing gives something to
| go back to
Lord Excalibur | that is often forgotten Erek, what the Dom will not
| to do
Erek & kisa | fit - it need not be written, but it should be
| clearly verbalized
*Night Spirit [HOST] | is it will not do or will not do now? sometimes we
| say we won't do something
*Night Spirit [HOST] | then do it later on
fit to be tied | yes.... relationships and people evolve over time
Erek & kisa | NS - that is covered under "Ongoing negotiations"
| <s>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | see I like blood and fire play--Grpa doesn't
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | But what we are willing to do changes over time.
*Night Spirit [HOST] | relationship has to change and grow
Erek & kisa | NS - I'd allow kisa (if she wanted) to say do
| scarification, but I'd not do it myself
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | What we negotiate at one point may not be true as
| little as a week later.
Lord Excalibur | of course GPDS as the relationship grows there is
| more and more trust, and of
Lord Excalibur | course new ways
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | It's not only that, but sometimes you see something
| and decide to trey it.
Erek & kisa | <kisa> - a wise individual knows hir limits, tho
| those may change over time and circumstances in a
| given relationship.
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Good show!
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | That;'s right, it changes constantly
*Night Spirit [HOST] | kisa that is true and good point Erek---so what we
| say once can change
Erek & kisa | E - there is a difference between pushing the edges
| of the envelope --- and tearing the hell out of it.
fit to be tied | <laffin>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | I like that
Lord Excalibur | nice description Erek
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Most envelopes stretch, but few tear well.
Nick | hi
Erek & kisa | No is always still NO - if that changes later ok,
| but if it doesn't that's fine too
*Night Spirit [HOST] | so basically when we negotiations we need to cover
| what we like, don't like,
*Night Spirit [HOST] | will never do, how much we like it--I assume that
| is important like I like
*Night Spirit [HOST] | paddles that flex compared to hard ones
*Night Spirit [HOST] | hello Nick
Nick | hey
Lord Excalibur | thats correct NS, I sent a list to LA that I found
| on a web site
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | NS used to say no to certain kinds of clips in some
| places, til we saw a
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | demonstration.
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | That changes things completely.
*Night Spirit [HOST] | well I perfer his fingers to nipple clips..clamping
| is ok on the body though
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Over a space of one day.
Erek & kisa | Let's add another set of considerations - as we age
| we can develope both interests that we never
| thought we'd have, but we ---
*Night Spirit [HOST] | so when we negotiations we should cover what we
| like, don't like, is right now
*Night Spirit [HOST] | a no-no, things could change, and how much we like
| something
Erek & kisa | also may develope reasons to NOT do somethings we
| love/loved
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | I've been called the human nipple clamp.
| Interestingly, some like hands better,
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | some metal; clips.
Lord Excalibur | I agree with that Erek
MoL's Katie J | yes, you need to leave room for growth.
*Night Spirit [HOST] | true Erek...never know ehat new things will develope
Lord Excalibur | there are several things that LA and I said no to
| but now do
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Erek, health problems can also change things.
Erek & kisa | kisa has had a heart attack - and is still in real
| danger there - so for us many of our favorite
| activities are curtailed ---
*Night Spirit [HOST] | true Erek and kisa I am a diabetic so there are
| certain things that are a
*Night Spirit [HOST] | no-no this should be known to whom I am playing with
Lord Excalibur | my feeling to kisa Erek, I have had two so I know
| how she feels
Erek & kisa | if I were so slf-centered as to not care about her
| over the long-run, I might go ahead and play hard
| anyway - as she still WANTS to
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | I have known doms like this.
*Night Spirit [HOST] | well no DOM wishes to break his toys --GrandPa
| DeSade
Lord Excalibur | well put NS
*Night Spirit [HOST] | those are not Doms darling--those are abusers
MoL's Katie J | not a caring Dom, anyway
Erek & kisa | OTOH - if I considr her, as I do all my subs, as an
| extension of myself - why would I so endanger
| myself --- I may be crazy,
Erek & kisa | but I'm NOT stupid or dangerously crazy
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | I was amazed a few weeks ago to see a good dom of
| long standing, who should
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | know better, whipping his submissive on the spine
| and kidneys.
Lady Aireanna | oh god.
Erek & kisa | That's not a good Dom sir
Laurent | Hi room ! By chance anybody (f) speaking french
| around ? I feel a bit lost !
Lord Excalibur | geez
Erek & kisa | That's a fucking idiot
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | I fully agree1
*Night Spirit [HOST] | well I want more and if I sugar low out I do stupid
| things--I want more D/s and
*Night Spirit [HOST] | not thinking..so I know how you need someone to
| care about you
Lord Excalibur | not good at all
Lord Excalibur | my sentiments entirely Erek
MoL's Katie J | no, Laurent, this is a CO conducted in English 3
*Night Spirit [HOST] | sorry Laurent sure don't
Erek & kisa | NS - I am also AODM, so I have to be careful of
| where and what I am/do
*Night Spirit [HOST] | ok all almost 6pm here--any last words?
Laurent | ok ladies, too bad bye and thanks
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | aS ns SAID EARLIER, MY OPIONION OF THAT DOM HAS
| CHANGED. tHOSE WERE NOT THE
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | ACTIONS OF A DOM, BUT OF AN ABUSER.
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Caps Loxck. AGAIN.
Erek & kisa | Agreed
Lord Excalibur | agree
*Night Spirit [HOST] | <--will fix GrPa's keyboard one of these days
Lady Aireanna | <S>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | so don't be afraid to give thoughts to negotiations
Lady Aireanna | oh leave it .....he is so powerful
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | It's my fingers that need the fixing NS.
*Night Spirit [HOST] | be honest in how you feel
*Night Spirit [HOST] | how about I come up there and kiss all your digets?
Lady Aireanna | <s>
Lord Excalibur | <s>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | digits?
Erek & kisa | Give and give generously to the *Dyslextic
| flingers* charity <g>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | spelling sucks
MoL's Katie J | I've learned a whole lot tonight .. thank you
MoL's Katie J | <fyslexic dingers>
Lord Excalibur | lol Erek
MoL's Katie J | <fyslexic dingers>
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | They need to be warmed up NS. Do you have somewhere
| I could put them to warm
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | them up?
*Night Spirit [HOST] | lol
*Night Spirit [HOST] | yes hon I do
Lady Aireanna | auh oh!
Lord Excalibur | I am sure she can think of something <s>
Erek & kisa | Ahhhhh
*mystic rain* | lol
Lord Excalibur | or somewhere
Erek & kisa | Yeppers
Lady Aireanna | nite nite kids!!!
Lord Excalibur | <weg>
*mystic rain* | thank you all...
fit to be tied | nite a;;
*Night Spirit [HOST] | once again all I wish to thank you---next weeks
| topic will be sent to all and
*Night Spirit [HOST] | posted
fit to be tied | all even
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | Thank you all.
Lady Aireanna | it was very good....
Lord Excalibur | thanks KAtie Night SPirit and GPDS
*Night Spirit [HOST] | thanks you all I shall attempt to post this CO in
| the forum by tomorrow to be
*Night Spirit [HOST] | merged before the end of the week
Lady Aireanna | thank you for your efforts NS and GPDS
Erek & kisa | Sorry we were late - went to the wall in Vancouver
MoL's Katie J | thank you for comong <s>
*Night Spirit [HOST] | Erek did you buy me anything?
MoL's Katie J | coming, even.
Lady Aireanna | and thank you too Katie J
Erek & kisa | wall dear - not mall
Lady Aireanna | <s>
Lady Aireanna | lol
Erek & kisa | As in Vietnam Memorial Wall
Lord Excalibur | seems we all have dodgy digits tonight lol
Lady Aireanna | or Vietnam Mall
*Night Spirit [HOST] | is it like the one in DC?
Lady Aireanna | I have them every night
Erek & kisa | It's a portable version
Lady Aireanna | athers writis
Lady Aireanna | see!
Erek & kisa | We found 2 of the 5 names we were looking for - the
| other 3 are still listed MIA
Lady Aireanna | goodnight everyone
Lady Aireanna | Oh that is for real.....
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | NS has me getting manicures. I used to chew my
| nails. Now the edges catch on
GrandPaDeSade[Host] | keys.
Lady Aireanna | forgive me Erek and kisa
Lady Aireanna | I appoligize
Lord Excalibur | Erek my apologies, I did not realise the
| seriousness of your words
Erek & kisa | LA - nothing to forgive - you didn;t know and I
| don't take offense so easily
Lady Aireanna | <<so embarressed>
Lord Excalibur | thank you Erek
*Night Spirit [HOST] | portible is it all Canadians or other nations?
MoL's Katie J | good night, all <s>
Lady Aireanna | thank you Sir.
MoL's Katie J | see you next week.
Erek & kisa | And sometimes we need a little levity - I was
| pretty well busted up earlier today - made the
| drive home a bit long
Lord Excalibur | I can only imagine Erek
Erek & kisa | NS- It was in Vancouver WA - near the Oregon border
| - sorry
********** 5/24/98 9:02 PM End logging Sub Pub - D/s.