TRUST
********** 8/30/98 4:57 PM Begin logging Silken Ties.
Lord Excalibur | evening GPDS
*Night Spirit* | good evening Lord E
*Night Spirit* | hello my love <hiding from GrPa>
Lord Excalibur | hello my dear
GrandPaDeSade | Good evening LE
GrandPaDeSade | Kisses and more of this afternoon for you NS
*Night Spirit* | shhot small crowd
Lord Excalibur | how are yoo both
*Night Spirit* | it is the more I am worrying about
GrandPaDeSade | Pretty good, and you?
Lord Excalibur | not bad at all thanks
*Night Spirit* | Lord E, GrPa attacked me this morning
GrandPaDeSade | You know what I just put back up downstairs NS
Lord Excalibur | oh really
Lord Excalibur | nicely I trust
Lady Aireanna | Good Evening.
GrandPaDeSade | ME? <Innocent look>
Lord Excalibur | hello my darling
Lady Aireanna | Nice to see you all again
*Night Spirit* | Good Evening Lady A
GrandPaDeSade | Good evening LA
*Night Spirit* | yes he put the double X0Frame back up
Lord Excalibur | the double XO?
GrandPaDeSade | Double X frame
*Night Spirit* | the double X-frame 2 subs on it face each other and
| watch each other suffer
GrandPaDeSade | She can't spell
Lord Excalibur | ah right
Lord Excalibur | oh very nice
*Night Spirit* | not tonight he was very naughty to me
GrandPaDeSade | Took her two hours to come back down to earth
Lord Excalibur | oh very good GPDS
GrandPaDeSade | Actually, I'm not sure she's all the way back down
| yet
*Night Spirit* | course walking is out of the question much less
| thinking
Lord Excalibur | <s>
*Night Spirit* | hiya little sis
MoL's Katie J | Good Evening. <s>
GrandPaDeSade | Hi there Katie
Lady Aireanna | good evening Katie
*Night Spirit* | how far are you from Washington DV Katie?
MoL's Katie J | good to see you GrandPa
Lord Excalibur | hello Katie
*Night Spirit* | DC
*Night Spirit* | see what you did to me GrPa
MoL's Katie J | good evening, Lady Aireanna <S>
MoL's Katie J | hello, Lord E
GrandPaDeSade | We're 2800 miles away
MoL's Katie J | I'm about a 3 hour drive from DC
*Night Spirit* | that's alot
*Night Spirit* | I am stuck there from the 8-11
MoL's Katie J | There's lots to do there
*Night Spirit* | I have testify before the grand jury
MoL's Katie J | all the museums are free <G>
*Night Spirit* | really?
sonja | hiyas y'all
MoL's Katie J | Clinton got you too??
*Night Spirit* | yes me too
MoL's Katie J | hugggs, sonja
GrandPaDeSade | I won't be with her. Can't afford the 1,600 airfare.
effy | <muttering> hugs y'all
GrandPaDeSade | $1,600 that is.
GrandPaDeSade | Hi effy
MoL's Katie J | All the Smithsonians .. the National Gallery .. the
| monuments .. all free, NS
Lord Excalibur | hello effy
MoL's Katie J | hugggggs, muttering effy
effy | <laughing>
effy | hugs everyone <s>
MoL's Katie J | hello, Sweety
GrandPaDeSade | Back again sweety?
GrandPaDeSade | Hi
Sweety | hi
effy | am i late?
suchana | Evening everyone ~ ! ~
GrandPaDeSade | evening suchy
MoL's Katie J | I think the summer has everyone on a late schedule,
| effy
MoL's Katie J | huggggggs, suchy luv
effy | i spent all day outside and am sunburned!!!
suchana | ( polite curtsie, Gr Pa ) < blush>
effy | or is that subburned?
Sweety | im burnt too
*Night Spirit* | now we have a few here we can start, tonight's
| topic is trust, do DOMD get it
*Night Spirit* | automatically or do they earn it. How does a Dom
| get trust from a sub, and
*Night Spirit* | should subs just give it away
MoL's Katie J | no whippings for you, then ... lol
Sweety | got a back that looks like the Swiss flag
GrandPaDeSade | And why are you blushing suchy?
suchana | much love Katie J, effy and Night Spirit
effy | the suchersmeister!! (c)
effy | hugs suchy!
suchana | < because my cheeks are warm GrPa .. <g>
*Night Spirit* | and tonight to start the conversation off is the
| winner of New Age trivia,
*Night Spirit* | suchy----how do you feel about the trust issue?
GrandPaDeSade | Cute
GrandPaDeSade | Suchy?
suchana | Well, Night Spirit ..
*Night Spirit* | yes suchy?
GrandPaDeSade | I wonder if the channel is having a problem?
suchana | I do not feel that trust is ( ever ) a given ..
| absolutely earned .. through
suchana | open communication, . and developing a foundation
| on which to trust.
effy | <wondering if I should oil suchy's fingers?>
suchana | i had to think of how to phrase it .
Sweety | well phrased suchana
GrandPaDeSade | I agree about earning it.
GrandPaDeSade | Especially
*Night Spirit* | ok suchy how does one develop this foundation?
effy | imo, trust is absolutely an exploration, and not a
effy | charted, given thing at the outset
suchana | I never wish to be ( or ahve my sub sisters and
| brothers ) treated as if they
suchana | MUST Trust, simply because they are the bottom ..
GrandPaDeSade | I wish more submissives understood what you are
| saying suchy. It would cut down
GrandPaDeSade | on the number of clods abusing them.
*Night Spirit* | how does a sub know when it is time to totally
| trust a Dom?
suchana | Perhaps developing this * trust* is, open continued
| communication, and moving
suchana | at a slower pace .. one that should be right for
| each individual .. If i am
suchana | wanting to play with you tonight, but i dont know
| you .. perhaps its my craving
suchana | speaking and not my head ..
MoL's Katie J | Trust is a living thing ... starts with a small
| seed and grows with love, time,
MoL's Katie J | and experience with each other.
Aria (busy) | hello all
GrandPaDeSade | Hi Aria
Aria (busy) | hello GrPa
Aria (busy) | hello NS
suchana | I also think that ( given room to error ) if ye3s,
| what katie said <S.
suchana | ( evening Aria )
*Night Spirit* | hiya Aria
MoL's Katie J | good question though ... how do you know how far to
| trust on a casual encounter?
Leda (busy) | Evening, all <s>
Aria (busy) | go slow?
GrandPaDeSade | Other people around or not katie?
Aria (busy) | leave opportunity to play again
GrandPaDeSade | Makes a difference
Aria (busy) | <nodding and agreeing>
MoL's Katie J | well .... let's say not.
GrandPaDeSade | Then you need to be VERY careful
Leda (busy) | Helps if you have references--which is not uncommon
| with a cyber community. <s>
MoL's Katie J | yes, that would help too <S>
Leda (busy) | In our cases, Katie, I think it made things a lot
| less scary. :-)
MoL's Katie J | absolutely
*Spartan* | A good evening to
| all.................................
*Night Spirit* | you talk to a Dom online for say 6 months, you meet
| in public, s/he seems just
*Night Spirit* | liked you hoped, you talk and meet again in a hotel
| room, do you trust them to
*Night Spirit* | tie you up?
GrandPaDeSade | Say I have you in my house, tied up, and the room
| is soundproofed. What
GrandPaDeSade | recourse do you have? You need to be very sure you
| can trust me BEFORE getting
GrandPaDeSade | into that situation.
suchana | ( totally time to trust ) ... That is very
| debatable ... That is asking for a
suchana | measure or formula .. where there is none .. it
| should be based upon past
suchana | performances and experiences, as they sceen and
| communicate .. and begin to
suchana | develope trust and it begins to grow .. ( a sub
| would or should know ) based
suchana | upon the feed back that they give each other and
| the ability of the Dom to *
suchana | work* within or gently .. push the limits ..
| knowing His .. or Her place just
suchana | as well ..
*Night Spirit* | when do we know to trust the Dom enough to let them
| tie a sub down?
Leda (busy) | NS, in theory, I'd say no, but we're human. <g> I
| wasn't planning on letting
Leda (busy) | Mentor tie me up the first time we played--the
| second time we met,
Leda (busy) | incidentally--but I did, in the end. <s>
suchana | Well, my good ness Gr Pa .. may i ? <S>
GrandPaDeSade | In a hotel room you can still be bound, gaged, and
| in trouble.
*Night Spirit* | Leda at that time how did you know you were safe?
GrandPaDeSade | May you answer, or join me at my house suchy?
Aria (busy) | perhaps I am unusually trusting, but I have had a
| great deal more trust than
Aria (busy) | what you seem to be advocating GrPa. I have played
| VERY hard and very
Aria (busy) | thoroughly after first public meetings, going so
| far as being bound and
Aria (busy) | blindfolded. I have a sixth sense that hasn't
| failed me yet.
suchana | ( please forgive me, i must go .. ) dinner is ready
| . and Gr Pa .. # 2 .<S>
*Night Spirit* | Night suchy
Leda (busy) | Well--instinct, largely, but also I knew that he'd
| had a sub who was still
Leda (busy) | online and with whom he still had a quite civil
| relationship. <s>
GrandPaDeSade | We could put you on the other side of the new
| double X frame we just got,
GrandPaDeSade | facing NS
sam <f> | When I first met Joseph he kept pointing out that
| he knew he was safe, but I
sam <f> | did not and it was he who made me observe what I
| now think of as basic safety
sam <f> | rules. He was all he claimed to be, but in
| retrospect I was naive not to have
sam <f> | put those things in place myself just in case,
| without him prompting me to
lucy | night suchy
effy | and besidesm he's a really nice guy <s>
Leda (busy) | And others had met him. So he was known, and he
| hadn't hurt anyone, and it was
Leda (busy) | verifiable. <s>
suchana | <weg> oh yes PLEASE <S>
suchana | night everyone <S>! ! !
GrandPaDeSade | Night suchy
*Spartan* | <---- had a very trusting look on my face when i
| tina and i first
*Spartan* | met.........laiap as i always do....<g>...
Leda (busy) | Huggggss, suchy :-)
MoL's Katie J | <smirk>
GrandPaDeSade | 32 floggers alone to try out
Leda (busy) | LOL Spartan--laiap with a biiiig flogger in hand.
| <g>
*Night Spirit* | ok so 1 way to know to trust a Dom is referrances
| from others
Arco | hello silkers
*Night Spirit* | instincts were mentioned, is that also a good
| indicater <sp> of trust?
Lady Aireanna | that can some times be a bit misleading however NS
*Night Spirit* | hello Arco
Lady Aireanna | <<<<not refering to LE of course>>>>
*Spartan* | huggs effy doll, NS, kj, leda, aria.........
GrandPaDeSade | Sounds like the talks I've had with many
| submissives about why they should not
GrandPaDeSade | trust me unless they know me.
*Night Spirit* | Lady A continue and hugs of hairy greek god
Aria (busy) | it has always been for me, but I do many things
| before hand to get to the first
Aria (busy) | meeting
Lady Aireanna | <S>
*Spartan* | :::::::::::blush:::::::::::
REX | hi
Aria (busy) | have a work phone number, so that I know that they
| are on the up and up
Aria (busy) | and a last name
effy | well -- i can say that i preface every reference
effy | requested with a " I know what I like, but I don't
| know
effy | what you like"
effy | (hugs Spartan) <s>
Aria (busy) | i try to talk to someone that they have had in
| their presence physically before
GrandPaDeSade | I don't think Instincts are any good for this.
| That's what con-men love
Leda (busy) | Gut instinct is a good factor in trust but should
| not be the only factor, IMO.
Leda (busy) | <s>
Lady Aireanna | ...............nothing negative.........just not
| waht it was all meant to been.
REX | sweety where u from
REX | ?
Arco | what is the subject?
*Night Spirit* | ok how about when you first plan to scene in
| private you set times to call a
*Night Spirit* | friend
*Night Spirit* | the subject is trust
Aria (busy) | thats the other back up plan that I have...
effy | i find issue with that, NS -- what if I am involved
| and
effy | don't want to stop to call for breaking the mood? I
effy | know safety must rule, but still ....
Lord Excalibur | NS, that is something in the past I have always
| told subs to do.
*Night Spirit* | Aria does it give you a sense of freedom to have
| this plan?
Lady Aireanna | ..........exactly.........LE was there for me all
| the time ......way back then
Aria (busy) | i request that we scene for no more than a certain
| amount of time, that I need
Aria (busy) | to make phone call before and afterwards always...
*Night Spirit* | effy good point my friend did that, I called her,
| no answer drove 40 miles was
*Night Spirit* | gonna call the cops
GrandPaDeSade | effy, the first session may not be as good because
| of the calls, but if you
GrandPaDeSade | don't, you my not be able to have a second, ever.
Lady Aireanna | <good friend>
*Night Spirit* | you should set a time that gives leeway
Lord Excalibur | there is a problem with this with subs who have not
| "come out"
Lady Aireanna | absolutely
Aria (busy) | Well I really disagree with GrPa, about the gut
| level instinct. My instinct
Aria (busy) | has* Never* been wrong yet. But yes, I feel a great
| deal of freedom to play as
Aria (busy) | hard as I want to, no matter what, if I know that
| we will play for a short
Aria (busy) | time, each time we meet at first.
effy | come out, LE?
Lord Excalibur | let friends of family know their preferance effy
Aria (busy) | well if they are transitioning from cyber to real
Julia | hello
Aria (busy) | they can always call on of the other cyber subs
| that they know
Lady Aireanna | hello Julia
effy | I still do not quite follow you Sir -- there's a
| problem
effy | with the calling or having someone to call or with
| them
effy | not being able to tear themselves away?
GrandPaDeSade | Aria, I know of some very experienced players who
| have been hurt but good
GrandPaDeSade | chamealeons.
*Night Spirit* | OK Aria I am going to Washington next week to
| testify about a Dom from
*Night Spirit* | compuserve, who ripped subs off of lifesavings, and
| tortured them
Lord Excalibur | possibly Aria (good evening btw) but then thats not
| always possible with this
Lord Excalibur | being world wide
*Night Spirit* | I got referrances
Lady Aireanna | good god
*Night Spirit* | I called
*Night Spirit* | I was too far away and ended up injuried
GrandPaDeSade | If you don't set up someone to call, now one may
| know you are in trouble until
GrandPaDeSade | it's too late.
*Night Spirit* | I knew him almost 2 years on line
*Night Spirit* | and I have been in this game for almost 20
| years....you really do not know
*Night Spirit* | but we all can't live in shelters forever
effy | well -- what about the flip side? he *knows* you
| have
effy | the call to make, and has you make the call as if
effy | everything was fine? what kind of reassurance is a
effy | call really?
Lord Excalibur | very true GPDS, in LA's past time, I had local
| police numbers etc at hand, as
Lord Excalibur | you know I was to far away to help physically
*Night Spirit* | must take some risks
Lady Aireanna | <s>
*Night Spirit* | effy how about a password
Lady Aireanna | and he stayed close by at all times too
effy | <asking stupid questions>
MoL's Katie J | you just want to minimize them
*Spartan* | re's......kissin my little one as i get up from
| gettin knocked
*Spartan* | off>............................<s>..pet......
Lady Aireanna | nothing is stupid effy
Lord Excalibur | there is always a risk eliment how ever well
| planned meetings are
GrandPaDeSade | We do take risks, but we should try to minimize
| them.
Aria (busy) | i can understand that you got injured... but the
| money issue? why in the world
Aria (busy) | would a sub give money to a Domme?
*~tina~* | <joins her Daddy quietly>
Aria (busy) | This is a high risk game... and even more so for
| me, being a pain slut
*Spartan* | <perk>...cashola?
Lady Aireanna | a sub would do anything if she is devoted enough
*Night Spirit* | ok so how do you know you can trust that Dom about
| to tie you down, what
*Night Spirit* | precautions should you take, and remember I have a
| good safety article in our
*Night Spirit* | library for you all
effy | i remember several years ago a certain Master Black
effy | or something had a contract that he wanted potential
effy | subs to sign, whereby they handed over everything
effy | they owned to him when collared.
GrandPaDeSade | Effy, if you use the word "fine", everything is OK,
| otherwise not. Or
GrandPaDeSade | Vice-versa.
Aria (busy) | on the other hand... i was with lostonearth this
| weekend... i could say to him
Aria (busy) | before hand that I am a pain slut and beg for more,
| ask him to lay into me and
Aria (busy) | beat me till my entire ass is black and blue...
| what issue of trust does he
Aria (busy) | have with me?
GrandPaDeSade | NS is to Aria
*Night Spirit* | Aria love makes you do really stupid things, I
| caught him, so I didn't lose
*Night Spirit* | much just skin mostly, others lost everything
Lady Aireanna | <<<<<<,,oh god that is unforgivable>>>>>
Lady Aireanna | <<<<<<hang his ass this time>>>>
*Night Spirit* | good point Aria, how does a Dom/me know to trust
| the sub s/he is with?
Aria (busy) | we talked about that today
*Spartan* | or just to see the sincerity....just ask to be
| private while u make a
*Spartan* | call...tina did that at the airport with
| me...........<after she asked for my
*Spartan* | driverslicense>...........lol
*Spartan* | i walked away and gave her space
Aria (busy) | he and i have been together before....
GrandPaDeSade | Aria, most don't realize it, but there are risks
| for doms to. Some subs have
GrandPaDeSade | problems to. Seen fatal attraction?
Aria (busy) | but he hasn't played with me as hard as before as
| we did this weekend... he
Aria (busy) | doesn't know that I won't go and say... god look at
| what this man(woman) did to
Aria (busy) | me.....
Lady Aireanna | good point
Lord Excalibur | unfortunately there are a few subs who will do
| anything and give anything to a
Lord Excalibur | Dom to satisfy the fire inside
effy | hm -- interesting thought, pain slut asking Dom to
effy | beat her black n blue, then turns him in, how does
| he
effy | prove that he's not guilty?
GrandPaDeSade | Including not saying when they are in real trouble
*Night Spirit* | how indeed effy?
*~tina~* | he doesnt effy.......remember the incident here in
| ny recently?
effy | how indeed?
Lord Excalibur | thats true GPDS
GrandPaDeSade | effy, you can't
*~tina~* | 15 yrs the man is doing
GrandPaDeSade | The law says you can not consent to be beaten
effy | <shaking my head>
effy | how come?
effy | GrPa?
Aria (busy) | can I mention that I think that the subs that do
| that (give everything) to a
Aria (busy) | dom/me to satisfy that fire.... are prolly the
| kinds that are out of control?
Aria (busy) | that would find some other way to do something to
| themselves that would give
Aria (busy) | them the opportunity to do so? because the fire is
| driving them, not their own
Aria (busy) | control to give up?
*~tina~* | she cried rape, and non consensuality
*Night Spirit* | ok so how do we know--this is ok, we can trust this
| person and let them tie me
*Night Spirit* | up or I can tie the slave up...what is the deciding
| factor?
*Spartan* | not considered a rational request and the person
| recving the request should
*Spartan* | know better and not do it...
effy | and how does the Dom know when to stop pushing a
effy | soft squishy limit?
GrandPaDeSade | The law considers to to be temporairly insane if
| you consent to being beaten.
GrandPaDeSade | that or under pressure.
Lord Excalibur | exactly Spartan, I have limits as you probably do
Aria (busy) | yeah well than i guess I am mostly always insane
*Spartan* | i was refering to the law....
effy | ((of hers, not his))
Aria (busy) | (biting back a comment)
Lady Aireanna | .........this is all so elementary............if
| you feel dangered.........then
Lady Aireanna | stop
Aria (busy) | of course Lady Aireanna
*Spartan* | signed contract is only way to protect
| oneself...<didnt know that
Lord Excalibur | but what if you are restrained LA?
*Spartan* | earlier>............................
effy | that was not what I referring to, LA
*Spartan* | not easy LA
GrandPaDeSade | Not everyone in the scene is completely stable Lady
| A
Aria (busy) | but... i have never felt in danger....
*~tina~* | absoluely LA, you do what you can to be
| safe....take all precautions ....and
*~tina~* | hope for the best
Aria (busy) | Spartan, contracts are not considered valid
Lady Aireanna | If you have no gut feeling............
Lord Excalibur | hope for the best is not enough tina
~wrybrat~ | <sneaking in>
Lady Aireanna | what are you doing anyway
Arco | doen't talking about it first help at all?
GrandPaDeSade | I hope you dever do Aria
Aria (busy) | no matter what, they state that you were under
| pressure when you signed...
*~tina~* | I said take all precautions and be safe as well
| Lord E
*Spartan* | perhaps in their validity to as to the law, but it
| does show pre-consent to
*Spartan* | the act and not just an attack..................
Lady Aireanna | why put yourself in the posture if your unsure
GrandPaDeSade | dever=never
Aria (busy) | I play with people that are sane... and that I know
| that know others, or I
Aria (busy) | don't play... people that i meet in 3D and know in
| vanilla situations
effy | the flip side is that I have felt out of control of
| the
effy | situation (honestly out of control) but because of
| the
effy | trust, I let it continue.
GrandPaDeSade | No spartan. Even if notarized, they say they don't
| know what pressure yiou were
GrandPaDeSade | under.
Lady Aireanna | exactly
Aria (busy) | Lady Aireanna, its not an issue of not feeling
| safe... its a matter of feeling
Aria (busy) | safe and then afterwards finding out that you were
| wrong, I think.
*Night Spirit* | LA I knew him 2 yrs, on the phone, email, talking
| here, I spoke to others who
*Night Spirit* | said he was ok, I let my friends know but they were
| in North Carolina, I was in
*Night Spirit* | Washington DC, alone the first night he was gentle,
| the 2nd he tore the skin
*Night Spirit* | off my nipples--I trusted the SOB now I have to go
| back and relive it.....how
*Night Spirit* | does one know when we can trust someone, where is
| the line?
Lady Aireanna | you never trust anyone here...........until you
| know.
*Spartan* | hanging up floger's n singletail, topping with
| sign.....'out of
*Spartan* | business'.......'gone fishin'............
*Night Spirit* | effy good point
*Spartan* | effy ?
Arco | NS nobody wants to get hurt
*Night Spirit* | I have known GrPa a very long time and trust him
GrandPaDeSade | Aria, are we sane? I would hate to meet someone who
| was completely sane. think
GrandPaDeSade | how boring. It the eratis nature that makes people
| interesting.
effy | yes Spartan?
Aria (busy) | yes GrPa I think we are sane
*Night Spirit* | took a while, he also had to help with my injuries
*Spartan* | but is that not the points we try to achieve....a
| state of total trust in a
*Spartan* | situation u turn over control to another
| ??????????????
Arco | help in what way ns?
*Spartan* | and then to pass them each next time ?
Aria (busy) | I think lostonearth is sane, I think that Madrigal
| is sane... I pretty much
Aria (busy) | trust their comments (sutra's and lost's) that you
| are sane
*Night Spirit* | but how does one know, where is the point that this
| nice person is trustworthy
*Night Spirit* | enough to be alone with?
Aria (busy) | otherwise, I would avoid you and NS....
*Spartan* | creating levels of trust and relinqueshing more n
| more control ..............
effy | i was just speaking of the trust issue and how far
| and
effy | safety, yadayadayada... that's allm Spartan,
effy | sometimes you cannot always be safety minded.
*~tina~* | we can banter this all night....in the end were all
| sayign the same thing
*~tina~* | anayway
Aria (busy) | however, I am very much looking forward to meeting
| the two of you sometime in
Aria (busy) | the future.
*Night Spirit* | Arco we had to grow the skin back and nuture my
| poor breasts
GrandPaDeSade | We are not out of control, but I doubt anyone is
| completely sane. You have
GrandPaDeSade | never made an unreasonable decision, had an
| unreasonable argument?
*Spartan* | <hhhmmm, understanding..hearing her
| words.....thinkin it has been a while since
*Spartan* | we talked>........
Arco | he helped in some way?
*Night Spirit* | yes he did
*Spartan* | dont gimme that look....................<g>
Arco | did he feel horrible for hurting uou too much?
*Spartan* | yea, that one
*Night Spirit* | GrPa didn't hurt me
Aria (busy) | no i have, but I have never played in that head
| space... have you?
effy | <laffin>
*Spartan* | <glad she is laffin now>
*Spartan* | lol
GrandPaDeSade | Aria, we are looking forward to meeting you too.
Aria (busy) | sane is a perception anyway <g>
Aria (busy) | well thank you much Sir <G>
GrandPaDeSade | Not playing Aria, real life.
Aria (busy) | Yes Sir, I mean that as well.
*Night Spirit* | ok here is a scene, this morning GrPa and I were
| playing, really going at it,
*Night Spirit* | suddenly I wasn't sure I was in subspace or
| diabetic sugar space, so I said
*Night Spirit* | TEST, I trusted him enough to stop the scene and
| test the blood, which he did
Lady Aireanna | medical alert NS
GrandPaDeSade | No Arco, It wasn't me. And fortunatly for him, he's
| not around here either.
*Night Spirit* | I trust him to care for me, watch over me no matter
| what we play or do
Arco | i see gp
*Night Spirit* | Arco the man who did this to me is Master Brett <BD>
Arco | sounds like gp and ns had a great morning together
Arco | ohhh i dont know him
GrandPaDeSade | It was a great morning.
Lord Excalibur | <look slyly at the airline tickets and thinking
| about next weekend>
Arco | happy to hear it gp and ns
*Night Spirit* | I know I can trust him, but I know his words, his
| voice, his touch, when I say
*Night Spirit* | lower or higher I know he hears me I trust
| him.....how did we get to the trust
*Night Spirit* | from the first meeting
GrandPaDeSade | Have you come down completely yet NS?
*Night Spirit* | mainly I felt he listened to me
Lady Aireanna | Goodnight all
*Night Spirit* | he asked questions
Lady Aireanna | lots to do
*Night Spirit* | Night Lady A
Aria (busy) | <<<<still hasn't from last night <g>
Lady Aireanna | thanks and have a great evening
*~tina~* | nite LA
Arco | was there any pain involved NS?
GrandPaDeSade | Night Lady A
MoL's Katie J | Time and experience, NS ... is there any other way?
| In the beginning .. there
MoL's Katie J | has to be a leap of faith at some point.
*Night Spirit* | I asked questions he answered---it all boils down
| to communication, and if you
*Night Spirit* | feel hey something is wrong--it more likely is
*Night Spirit* | Arco we are deep into S&M so you betcha
effy | <-- always heeds any red flag or just weird feeling.
*Night Spirit* | good effy
*Night Spirit* | if s/he doesn't answer you find out why
*Night Spirit* | all barriers must be lowered for trust to exist
GrandPaDeSade | Aria, back to what we were saying, it could be said
| that any argument is
GrandPaDeSade | unreasonable, as seldom is anything accomplished
| once you progress from
GrandPaDeSade | discussion to argument.
*Night Spirit* | honesty and communication
effy | question is -- when does a Dom know when to stop
effy | playing, when is THIER trust with you breached if
| you
effy | keep asking for more? (original question)
*Night Spirit* | Katie do you feel going and totally trusting is a
| leap of faith? or leap of
*Night Spirit* | love? or just trust?
GrandPaDeSade | Arco, I am affectionatly know by my friends as "The
| Human nipple Clamp"
*Night Spirit* | effy I trust GrPa to not go so deep he ignores my
| needs, he says no more I
*Night Spirit* | trust him to mean it for my own safety
GrandPaDeSade | effy, this morning when I stopped, NS was still
| asking for more.
effy | NS -- you are inna long term relationship there, it
| was
GrandPaDeSade | I wasn't sure she could tell if she reached a limit
| anymore.
effy | more directed to the newer meets and exploration
effy | stage of a relationship
Aria (busy) | <listening to GrPa> Can I make a comment to that
| Sir? about the arguement
Aria (busy) | thing? I have this feeling... now that I am older,
| wiser, more experienced,
Aria (busy) | that makes me stop arguing now... cause you are
| right, they are not
Aria (busy) | productive....
MoL's Katie J | For me, I felt the love ... and we had good
| communication ... and had a strong
MoL's Katie J | level of trust .. but it was still a leap to allow
| him to tie me up that first
MoL's Katie J | time ... to cede that control.
effy | (hugs everyone)
effy | i think I am going to bed.
effy | everyone -- thank you for the chat and goodnight.
MoL's Katie J | hugggs, effy
Aria (busy) | night effy
GrandPaDeSade | Yes, but you have to overcome the urge. Is that
| completely sane? I think
*~tina~* | nite effy <s>
GrandPaDeSade | society operates on an agreed level of compromise
| of sanity. Look at Germany
GrandPaDeSade | during WW II for example.
Lord Excalibur | The problem we are having here this evening is that
| everyone has a differant
Lord Excalibur | level at which they trust another. We all have our
| own ideas on what "trust"
Lord Excalibur | is, how it is acheived and when to allow total
| control to another
GrandPaDeSade | Night effy
Aria (busy) | so I don't argue like that anymore... I get angry,
| I say, Okay I am going to
Aria (busy) | cool off
*Night Spirit* | Night effy
Lord Excalibur | night effy
Aria (busy) | so its not even a matter of overcoming the urge....
| its a matter of wanting to
Aria (busy) | come to a solution of the problem.
*Night Spirit* | Lord E do you have a solution?
Lord Excalibur | only to do as we have discussed here tonight, take
| all precautions, know your
Lord Excalibur | partner as well as you can, other than that it
| still comes to the same thing,
Lord Excalibur | differant people have differant levels
*Night Spirit* | does anyone have a solution on where is the line of
| trust, or is it something
*Night Spirit* | we all must decide for ourselves?
GrandPaDeSade | No unreasonable fears Aria? Heights, etc.? Get
| along well with everyone? See
GrandPaDeSade | what i mean?
GrandPaDeSade | Agree LE
MoL's Katie J | There's no litmus test .. you must decide for
| yourself.
Aria (busy) | no i don't have any unreasonable fears
Lord Excalibur | no one can make you trust another, it is within
| yourself and you alone
Lord Excalibur | thank you GPDS
Aria (busy) | and I do get along well with others... but I do see
| what you mean... yet i
Aria (busy) | would very much say, other than being a pain slut,
| other that being so very
Aria (busy) | much deep into BDSM that the vanilla world would
| commit me, I believe that I am
Aria (busy) | as sane as they come.
*Night Spirit* | Mmmmmmmmm so then a Dom/me should earn the trust,
| and subs should not give it
*Night Spirit* | to just anyone, and visa versa?
Lord Excalibur | yes NS, trust is earned on both sides as you say
GrandPaDeSade | I'd go further LE. I think you trust the same
| person differently at different
GrandPaDeSade | times. For instance, if I were ill, I might not
| trust NS to take care of me as
GrandPaDeSade | much as a doctor.
Aria (busy) | That however, is totally my perception. Yes Night
| Spirit, I think however, that
Aria (busy) | I would change that to both of them needing to earn
| trust.
MoL's Katie J | Agreed.
Lord Excalibur | yes it depends on the person and the circumstances
| as you say GPDS
*Night Spirit* | Aria good point :)
GrandPaDeSade | Obviously, I don't consider BDSM a commitable
| thing. But I could be fro what I
GrandPaDeSade | did to NS today also.
Aria (busy) | <<<<leaving, sorry <sigh>
*~tina~* | nie Aria <s>
*Night Spirit* | Night Aria and hugs hon
Aria (busy) | talk to you all later.
Aria (busy) | bye
MoL's Katie J | g'nite, Aria
GrandPaDeSade | Night Aria
~wrybrat~ | huggggs Aria <s>
Lord Excalibur | GPDS there will always be someone in this world
| that will think you or I are
Lord Excalibur | insane what ever we do ................ nite Aria
GrandPaDeSade | Huggs aria
MoL's Katie J | darn kids .... I have to fly <hugs to all who want
| them>
GrandPaDeSade | WHATEVER WE DO - I titally agree LE
GrandPaDeSade | Totally even
Lord Excalibur | <s>
GrandPaDeSade | Talk about a freaudian slip
*~tina~* | nie katie
*Night Spirit* | ok I would say we made some good points. I want to
| once again thank you all
Lord Excalibur | lol
*Night Spirit* | for comming, and use the message sections to your
| hearts desire, check out the
*Night Spirit* | library for silken ties and ALTernative
GrandPaDeSade | I give up
Lord Excalibur | thanks again GPDS NS and Katie
GrandPaDeSade | Thank all of you too.
GrandPaDeSade | Thank you LE
Lord Excalibur | good night all take care until we meet again
*Night Spirit* | I will get this weeks and last weeks CO up in the
| library this week, I couldn't
*Night Spirit* | last week due to work :)
~wrybrat~ | night all <s>
Lord Excalibur | pleasure GPDS
GrandPaDeSade | Night wry
*Night Spirit* | Hugs all and thanks for comming see you Sunday
********** 8/30/98 5:59 PM End logging Silken Ties.